Something about Wipeout HD / fury doesn't feel.. well right!

[carrtak]

Hi everyone! First post so sorry its not all that positive.
I absolutely loved the first three editions of the series. For me, it was all about the speed, the fringe techno and the fun of drifting around corners.

Why has drifting disappeared from wipeout? HD and fury simply don't have a fun flight model. The physics feel sterile - its no longer like you are floating in a real medium like air. Its more like skating on smooth ice or something. The craft more or less go where you point them end of story. There is no satisfying airbrake whooosh and slide, no blurr of corner before the straightaway appears in front of you. No feeling of slowing down something moving through air at insane speeds..

I had a go with 2097 again the other day and I was horrified about how much more fun that game is. By comparison HD just feels like a PS3 tech demo to me.

Whats more I can't believe the rave reviews HD and fury are getting considering this. Seriously does no one else agree? Am I the only bitter old man remenissing of the old days?!

[Kyonshi]

Well... I'll put WipEout HD/Fury in perspective to the earlier console version, Fusion. In Fusion, people have been experiencing the most crappy A-G effect ever; the ships seemed to be glued to the track or on rails, and the bumpy effect and floating feeling was totally absent. Now in HD/Fury, we got back to these wonderful and realistic physics.

It may not be drifting and sliding the way you picture it, still there's a slight effect of drifting, but not that much. I think its because its not a rally racing game, and i see it has part some non-official aspect of the WipEout storyline; its now the 23rd century and, surely in such far time in the future, aerodynamics, mass and velocity handling technologies and engineering should have improved a lot more, making drifting less more influencing piloting and allowing a sharper cornering. Even AG cells could have been improved that much to correct erratic craft behavior.

I don't understand why you think the game shouldn't deserve the critical acclaim it got because there's no drifting effect... Come on, you're being way too hard for nothing. And the speed effect at Phantom is perfectly put the way it is, no need to improve this feature imho.

On a personal note, i dont think drifting is essential to nowadays WipEout titles. If there would be a real need of this feature, it should only affect the heavy-weight ships like Auricom, Triakis, Piranha, Icaras, Goteki 45, etc. Otherwise, the game is fine by me. Maybe some turbulences tailing the ships would look cool though :)

[Lance]

Seriously does no one else agree? Am I the only bitter old man remenissing of the old days?!

Probably not the only one, nope.

BTW, welcome to the WZ.

[DawnFireDragoon]

hi there.

saying it doesn't feel right is interesting. i think it feels 'different'. every game in this now pretty impressively large series feels different. And while i would class myself as an old timer...at least in wipeout terms, i do like HD. (Just not as much as 2097, 3:SE or Pure) and i totally see where you're coming from with the comments on the handling.

There is definitely a divide as to those that really love HD and those that like it, but would like some of the things from past games back.

we''ll have to see where the series goes next...

[Darkdrium777]

The game is different but still excellent.
If this drift effect was the only criteria for the reviews then yes it would get a lower score than Big Rigs Over the Road Racing on GameSpot, fortunately it isn't and the game excels in graphics, sounds, gameplay, features and competitive price. You are being very harsh here suggesting that the game doesn't deserve the reviews it has because it is different from 2097/XL. If you want to play that type of game, the choice is yours as it is available to you to play WipEout 2097/XL.

Now on the other hand I will agree with the fact that it was one of the best feelings you could experience in the game, but it is not entirely what made it either.

[carrtak]

Honestly I'm just trying to put into words why I don't find HD/fury as satisfying or fun as the older games... whilst this may just be my opinion, I feel that some things are just fun plain and simple and I think wipeout has lost some thing 'organic' in it's latest incarnation... I'm surprised how disappointed I am thats all!


Probably not the only one, nope.

BTW, welcome to the WZ.

Thanks for the welcome!

I played the original wipeout in the Ministry of Sound in London having blagged my way in at the age of 16 with a fake ID and a couple of my sisters girlfriends!! Right place, right age I guess but it burned it way onto my gaming conscience like a tatoo. That week I stumped up the 300 pounds for the PS1.

Sometimes simple games (remember when it was just about making three corners in a row??) with great physics and 'feel' are absolutely captivating.

2097 was, impossibly, a better game still and I am desperate to get a PS3 version made that has no draw distance!

I wasn't really a big fan of the 'washed out' look of wip3out but it was still great.

Fusion was a travesty and to be honest I only feel like HD and Fury look good by comparison with fury.. I urge all those who haven't tried the orginal wipeout to forgive the graphics and have a go.. it's wholely different and not necessarily in a bad way.

BTW is there any way to play 2097 on the ps3?

[lunar]

I totally agree with your post, carrtak. I don`t find it any easier than you do to put the feeling into words. I have heard Wipeout HD described as a "twitch racer" and think that is possibly an apt description. There is no sense of these ships being objects flying in air - they feel like graphics on a scrolling but pretty background which is what they are. There`s no illusion in the handling that they are any more than that. Unlike in original Wipeout and in 2097, ships in Wipeout HD don`t have a sense of weight to distinguish their handling character, they just have wider or tighter turning circles and have more or less sensitive steering. I tried to love this game, but I don`t and decided I won`t kid myself any more. Even Wipeout Pure, which I played again lately, gives you a better sense of flying a ship instead of manipulating graphics. The darn thing is impossible to describe, but those who also feel what is missing know what I mean, I think.

The old (first 3) games are about finding racing lines for a ship that drifts and floats; HD (and Pulse) are all about fast fingers and are good fast games but are soul less in comparison. "Tech demo" is perhaps a little harsh, but there is an element of truth to it. I think if I said HD`s handling is like a mobile phone game compared to the halcyon days of the first 3 games it would also be a touch harsh, but with an element of truth I think.

I don`t want to sound too harsh either, and good luck to all who love the game, but if this was the first Wipeout game I ever played then I would not be in love with the series at all. I would think it was a game that was okay for a bit, but which didn`t rock my world. Maybe this is a bit of a rant, but this is "Wipeout Zone" and so I can say this here ;) The thing that made Wipeout better and more special than F Zero doesn`t exist any more for me. So nobody should flame me for my views.

Even the soundtrack music in HD is harsh and abrasive, the game is bang bang crash spin boost and a noise all round - not poetry in motion any more.


Am I the only bitter old man remenissing of the old days?!

No you are not at all, but I guess you summed up what is going on in that line ;)

Welcome to Wipeout Zone by the way:)

[OBH]

welcome mate :)

i can appreciate people who prefer the old games. at first i thought "my god this isnt what i was expecting!" but give it a while, watch some videos, try out some shortcuts etc, and hopefully you'll agree that although vastly different, its well worth its place in the series :)

as times gone on its also becoming my favourite in the series. though its multiplayer aspect is the main reason for that.

[Darkdrium777]

I totally agree with your post, carrtak.You totally agree with:

Whats more I can't believe the rave reviews HD and fury are getting considering this. Seriously does no one else agree?

? You agree that WipEout HD doesn't deserve an 80/100 Metascore?

[lunar]

Leaving aside the metascore, a point which you added, Xavier, I agreed with what carrtak actually wrote as a general statement. I go along with the general idea that while the graphics of HD are applauded I feel the gameplay has slipped since the old days. We could go into specifics of reviews which would be changing the point, but generally I agree with him that as a game HD is over-rated in some quarters. I do think it`s very good and I`m glad it is a success, but that is my opinion of the quality of the game :)

As for the metascore, well, all games are over-rated these days I think. At 80 it`s probably about as good as other 80s and better than many 80s so it deserves that, but carrtak did not mention the metascore anyway :)

[DawnFireDragoon]

Good points Lunar.

with regards to the music, i do like some of the HD/Fury music, but i can solve some issues right now: bring back Cold Storage!!! Tim is still making good tracks, and should definitely be involved with the music in any future wipeout titles imo.


BTW is there any way to play 2097 on the ps3?

all ps3's play ps1 games, so thats one way, but as for it been on the ps store, it's not currently. Ages ago it was actually been advertised as been available in leaflets coming with ps3 games (uncharted for example) but nothing ever came of it, rumours pop up every now and then of a release....but no one in the know ever comments on them...so we are none the wiser sadly.

[carrtak]

I totally agree with your post, carrtak. I don`t find it any easier than you do to put the feeling into words. ~~snip~~

No you are not at all, but I guess you summed up what is going on in that line ;)

Welcome to Wipeout Zone by the way:)

I'm not sure why, but I feel better now knowing I'm not the only one!! I think I'll enjoy hd and fury better for what they are now! Oh and the new (fusion hd fury) music is too slow - it should be 10x as many beats per minute.. what next, hip hop in wipeout??!! At least you can put your own music in!

Cheers!

[Aeroracer]

all i can say is ...yes their is no drifting anymore and old wipeout vs new wipeout play completly different..like ridge race vs gran turismo..

neither are the better its all down to personal choice or both.I love drifting but now im into precision steering.

team liverpoll just had to make a choice and decided a non driffting game would be more polpular than a driffting game.were they right ...i do not know..:?:?

[Darkdrium777]

Dude, there's no need to quote the entire post. :) Please read the rules (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/announcement.php?f=18), they are different than on other forums. ;)

[carrtak]

:) :) :) :) :) :) Thank you so much for straightening me out :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Z_Zoquis]

I odn't know, I play a lot of videogames and afaic if theres any PS3 game that deserves a metascore of 80 or better its Wipeout HD. Its a freakin phenomenal videogame - "drifting" or not...

[Aeroracer]

Dont worry..no one was as bad as me when i started at site for dumb posting.

..i started self love thread just cos i got to 8th event on wipeout HD.WWWOOOWWWW.

i started a thread called "i dont understand" which was about ship stats and many more crap threads so crap i forgot what they were.Then one day i found this really boring thread called forum guidelines and my eyes were opened :dizzy

[brummpahh]

Hi carrtak, m8,

you are not alone... so many people will never see/feel the
moody rain of Gare'd Europe and the perfect handling
of the original Piranha...

gimme 2097 on PS3 with HD graphics and multiplayer
and i will not touch any DS3 anymore, because i've got
some serious NegCon here...

Since this will not happen, try WO HD online. Some
real fine people out there...:clap

cya, brummpahh

[Sausehuhn]

[...] Unlike in original Wipeout and in 2097, ships in Wipeout HD don`t have a sense of weight to distinguish their handling character, they just have wider or tighter turning circles and have more or less sensitive steering. [...] The old (first 3) games are about finding racing lines for a ship that drifts and floats; HD (and Pulse) are all about fast fingers and are good fast games but are soul less in comparison.[...]

Fully agree. Even though I enjoy WOHD, it's not what WO used to be. We had the discussion about the physics since WOF now and in the end it turns out that the old handling is just not suitable for the mass market. Which is a shame, really.
And concerning the graphics: They are top notch - but the style is not my thing. Most tracks are just too colorful and flashy, the dark, urban, realistic mood is lost (and even Fusion did a good job here). And I wish the designers would have gone for less complex structures but more objects instead. Go downhill at Metropia and look left and right and you will see nothing but a simple bitmap as the city's bottom and no more buildings less than 200m away. There is no sense of space for at least 1/2 of the tracks.

[Frances_Penfold]

... in the end it turns out that the old handling is just not suitable for the mass market. Which is a shame, really...

This is what I came to post.

The slip/slide feel of the older games (even Pure to some extent) really puts people off, in my experience. On a number of occasions I have seen hardcore gamers-- posting on other forums-- say that the early Wipeout game are "unplay-able" or "have aged poorly" due to handling :?

Personally I don't mind the handling of WOHD and Pulse-- but I do really enjoy the feel of the older games as well.

[Lance]

I wonder why the original handling would put people off; it actually feels like your there in a real world controlling a real machine. Unlike, ooohhh, F-Zero, for instance.

[Frances_Penfold]

I don't think that realism (is that even an appropriate label for an AG-based game?) is what most gamers care about in handling-- it's how intuitive the controls are and how quickly they can become effective at using them :|

I don't think for most gamers that the controls for the older Wipeout games are intuitive or easily learned.

[Lance]

I thought that intuitive is exactly what they were, 'cause I picked it up pretty fast despite having already been almost 57 at the time, and I am far below the best videogame players. The physics of the old games feel real to me, the way masses actually behave when in motion, and that means I could deal with the movement in the same way as I'd naturally expect, hence, intuitively.

[Frances_Penfold]

Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that your childhood was spent racing AG vehicles in a distant star system in the crown nebula, while the rest of us grew up driving cars :p

[Lance]

Nah, I spent much of my time with King Arthur and Robin Hood, and in the Land Beyond the Looking Glass.

[IH8YOU]

Wipeout - handling was almost TOO real from acceleration / steering standpoint. Of all the games, I'd say that one handled most like an AG ship likely would. Bouncy over gaps and altitude changes, serious deceleration up hill, and air-brakes that worked like flaps on a plane.

The wall / track collision physics in the original was too brutal to even be described as brutal - it was epically (@*$ing damning in the gutters of hell simmering in an ooze of smashed @$$hole$. But it did one thing - killed off the weak and feeble - only the true nuts actually stuck the game through. And it sure taught me the importance of clean lines.

2097 was my favorite handling Wipeout to date - hands down, no contest.

Wip3out - eh, more dynamic gameplay with the shield/boost sacrifice - but started changing for the worse handling wise. (sure it was "precise" - not that the first 2 weren't - but it stopped handling like an AG ship "should").

Wipeout Fusion - was confusing, to say the least. Yes, 60FPS sped things up - yet the handling was muddy and soft - and lines didn't seem consistent - even if YOU were. Especially on the ice / forrest - or any of the major vertical drops / loops where the scenery whizzed by. The "rocky section" of Florion Height isn't what I mean - as that was relatively consistent - it's when the graphics were taxed and gameplay suffered.

The saving grace from Fusion - my GOD - I loved the handling of that games Zone Ship / Zone Mode - it still feels faster to me that the current Zone Mode. And that mode DID feel precise - it got shaky for me after Zone 52 with the hairpins - but I chalk that up to me sucking.

Pure handled VERY different from any Wipeout - yes the dynamics game changed to be more fun - but the handling was very different. I chalked that up to the tiny screen, buttons, and PSP itself - so I don't judge Pure against the full console versions.

Pulse I never played - so I dunno.

Wipeout HD - it feels muddy, fake and laggy. Even with my new PS3 - there is considerable lag - and the busier my fingers get with multiple commands - the fewer actually get executed. On Fusion in Zone 50+ on a very technical section of track, I'd be slamming the @(#^ out of the airbrakes and dpad at the same time and it always did what I asked. With HD - if I barrel roll, counter steer, side shift, absorb a pickup before crossing a pad, and attempt to shoot the new one (in quick succession). Well, 2 of my 5 commands likely won't make it 50% of the time. There have been times where my ship REALLY defies physics - the biggest is how the mass seems to get a lot lower when you pull away from the track - it feels heavier on/near it - but after a certain point - it behaves completely different. The same goes for steering / airbrakes - when you start to / slip off the edge - airbrakes don't work anymore - which is a double suck for obvious reasons.

Edit: Before I'm told to stop playing HD and go back to the stone ages of 2097 - I DO ENJOY WOHD - ask anyone at Sony / SL who's seen my account time for WOHD on PSN - it's fun. But I do feel the handling in this generation isn't what it could be.

[0L4F]

This thread is actually about a fundamental issue in the 'feel' of WipEout games: inertia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia).
For me personally, inertia made 2097 such an incredible joy to play. You're taking a sharp corner. At some point, you're facing the inside of the corner head-on, but you know you have the momentum to make it around it. Once I got my head around it (took quite a while) it was amazing.

But inertia has gone missing since then. Wip3out toned it down, and Fusion just ditched it. It's still quite absent in HD, but the rest of the gameplay there is enough to make up for that.

I love playing WipEout in HD, but I'd love it even more with a '2097 Inertia'-option.

[G-Hob]

I am really enjoying the feel and handling of HD. I enjoyed both of the PSP games, but the HD version is so much easier to control and to avoid the walls, especially on Phantom.

Of the earlier games I liked Wip3out's handling the best (ignoring turbo-scraping), partly because I find the left-analog stick of a Dual Shock much better for controlling Wipeout the the D-pad. HD's handling is close enough to 3's than I'm more than happy with it.

[RJ O'Connell]

One thing I've learned to appreciate about Wipeout HD after playing a ton of Street Fighter and other fighting games is how balanced the ships are compared to other games in the series. It's no longer about picking the ship with the highest top speed rating. A skilled pilot flying FEISAR has as much chance to win as a skilled pilot flying Icaras or AG Systems.

As great as having an online feature for Wipeout 3 would have been, I bet you anything 80% of the races would essentially be all Icaras. Then you'd have a competitive gaming scene even worse than Smash Bros.

[ProblemSolver]

"Something about Wipeout HD / fury doesn't feel.. well right!"

Hmm ... something is wrong with the loading screen, if you ask me.

[Gusto-Pastel]

I'm probably going to be banned from the forums for saying this, but I hated Wipeout XL. There. I said it. My opinion is probably a little coloured because it was the 4th Wipeout game I played (after Wip3out, Fusion and HD in that order, addicted to all three in turn... except Wip3out, I only had the demo for it but I was still addicted when I had it!), and I played it on PC with a load of stuff missing (backgrounds, music), but it all felt kinda crap. I stopped dead every time I hit a wall, all the turning felt way too sensitive and, though this might be an effect of playing it on PC, everything felt like it was in fast forward. And now I have another reason to hate it, and that's because everyone else loves it :D I never felt that there was any sense of inertia in XL, like losing all your kinetic energy upon the slightest impact, which should turn the pilot's internal organs to a fine paste, and I can definitely feel it in Fusion and HD. You want inertia? Try getting the Tigron to go around a hairpin, you have to slide it round the corner like you would a rally car! And in HD the physics handle inertia so much better, although sliding not so much so. But if you think about it, AG racing is effectively the F1 of the future, and do you see Brawns or McLarens sliding round the place? No, so why should they in 200 years' time? Admittedly they don't go around firing weapons at each other now either, but that's probably for saftey reasons. If they could do it safely they would. It's very easy for people who've been with a series for a while to see classic games through rose-tinted glasses. Just think about that for a bit.

[Sausehuhn]

[…] do you see Brawns or McLarens sliding round the place? No, so why should they in 200 years' time? […]

Maybe because in 200 years they're not driving cars anymore but floating in AG-vehicles that do react differently?

;)

[ProblemSolver]

... But if you think about it, AG racing is effectively the F1 of the future, and do you see Brawns or McLarens sliding round the place? No, so why should they in 200 years' time? ...
They do slide to some degree while being on the limit.

And from a physical point of view there is no turning without sliding while moving,
since one would need an infinite amount of energy to abruptly change direction.

[JABBERJAW]

New wipeouts will never feel like the old ones. Barrel rolls being one reason, but imo not the main one. The sideshift makes drifting unneccessary, and you can essentially grip every turn. The pitch control in HD means just about nothing, it doesn't affect the speed except to a mimimum degree. Also, while I agree that hitting the wall should not stop you dead (there is scraping btw before that happens), being able to ride the wall (fusion, HD) and get around turns just as fast as making a perfect turn is complete crap. HD does have nice movement of the ship, and the control in the air is pretty good, but when the landing doesn't matter (as compared to the original 4), and you can bottom out and keep your speed, it takes out a huge element(skill feature) of the original game, a feature that was one of the main reasons I liked it, because it was a 4 way movement game instead of a 2 way movement game, and you had to land just right, or risk losing perhaps 50kph. The sideshift makes anticipating turns a thing of the past. It used to be awesome piloting a qirex through spilskinanke, and thefeeling you get when you made it through that difficult tunnel unscathed is not attainable in HD.

My opinion on HD is they took pure/pulse, made a super smooth playing game, improved the ships physics, improved the flight control, but after that, the rest of the game was made way too easy in comparison to those two previous games, that now everyone keeps up with everyone, and it is a crapshoot as to who gets the good weapons. EVEN the best pilot in the world would have severe trouble getting away from the pack. I think that if it had kept pure's pulse' wall collision, it would be much better for competition, and easily the best of the last three, but as is, it is not enough about driving skill.

OH, analog means nothing as well, forgot about that too, making a smooth turn instead of tap tap tap isn't any faster, but may actually be slower. This may be due to only 6 degrees of analog movement that was programmed into it though.

so while I think all three of these games are good, they are not even close to the previous games as far as enjoyment goes, where it is actually difficult to get perfect laps, and driving messups actually mean you are going to lose ground every time it happens, not occasionally.

Whoever said something about sliding even on turning, I forgot who, QR is actually like that.

[Gusto-Pastel]

They do slide to some degree while being on the limit.

And from a physical point of view there is no turning without sliding while moving,
since one would need an infinite amount of energy to abruptly change direction.

Ah, but they don't slide, they rotate the front wheels and the overall direction of the car is altered. Although thinking about it now a day later, the change in physics between wheels and hovering probably would lead to a degree of sliding... although that means that the "slippy" sections in Fusion made no sense, because the surface you're on shouldn't make a difference... even then, Fusion had a much better sense of inertia and sliding in heavier ships than HD. Also, looking at Jabberjaw's post, I've spent the last 4 years or so trying to figure out what exactly pitch control is meant to do, only to find that it affects jump height in HD. Not very useful, considering it used to be another part of the integral ship controls, although it probably had to make way for things like side shifting, possibly the most useless feature ever, and barrel rolls, which are cool when they work.

[yeldar2097]

Before anyone shoots me, I too prefered the way 2097 handled. I agree about the bottoming-out bit but that was probs chaged cos of BRs (like you said JAB).
However, the BRs in HD work just fine (they used to be crap but now they're fixed ^_^ ), Sideshift is completely awesome and necessary to get a vaguely decent time, and the same goes for pitching (albeit not quite as much but it's still v necessary in certain places).
P.S. You can still win races without using weapons...it's called "being sociable (only in one's own mind though)" :P

[JFthebestJan]

pitch control affects jump height in HD. Not very useful, ... like side shifting, possibly the most useless feature ever

i can assure u, that pitch control is very useful in HD. it's my "secrect" weapon to go under 28sec. in ZICO mode.
and sideshifting is even more useful then pitch control, u can cut corners very effectively!
just my 2 cents

[leungbok]

Also, looking at Jabberjaw's post, I've spent the last 4 years or so trying to figure out what exactly pitch control is meant to do, only to find that it affects jump height in HD. Not very useful,

Here an example of the utility of pitch control (the first BR) :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWl8tAdQI5A


and barrel rolls, which are cool when they work.

When they don't works, it's our fault ! (since fury release) ;)

[ProblemSolver]

Ah, but they don't slide, they rotate the front wheels and the overall direction of the car is altered. ...
They don't slide that much, but they always do to a certain degree. What you
are referring to as sliding is when a race driver goes beyond the grip limit.
But even if he does not, the car does always slide a bit when turning while
moving. The tires do rotate and move forward, true, but as soon as you wanna
change direction they start to slide / slip. It works something like this;
while turning, a tire loses grip and starts to slip, but a split second later
the tire regains grip again and will lose it once again, and so on. As harder
you push as longer those slip intervals become. And at a given point, if the
sum of the longitudinal force and the lateral force exceeds the traction
available, the tire doesn't get any grip again for an extended period of time.
This period is usually referred to as sliding. A common misconception in
text-books is, that a tire doesn't slip as long as the forces applied to it
doesn't exceeds the traction available, which isn't true. As soon as one
applies a longitudinal or lateral force to a tire it starts to slips to a
certain degree. But granted, it's not that obvious. ;)

[yeldar2097]

ProblemSolved
:lol

[ProblemSolver]

ProblemSolved
:lol
xD

I got once interested in simulating tires, in developing a solver based on the
finite-element method (FEM) to solve the necessary equations. A part from
understanding the mathematical formulation and approximation, which by itself
is a very hard subject, one of most difficult problems lies in accurately modeling
the materials used for a tire. Simulating elastic materials that do also depend
on temperature and which may likely do have a memory effect makes solving those
equations utterly hard, since the so-called material laws, to be supplemented to
the main equations, become non-linear. Simulating real tires by the laws of physics
is still in its infancy. However, it's an very interesting subject.