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View Full Version : boost-select-boost, things to know about it !



leungbok
28th May 2009, 11:07 AM
While I do like the looks of the boost-select trick, I don't think this is what the programmers were trying to achieve.

You boost in the previous lap, cancel the lap with select, and then re-use the boost by boosting the turbo again in the next lap. Obviously the boost itself isn't canceled and you can recycle it in the lap though you just cancled it!

That tells me this was not what it was meant to be used for and is thus not a feature but actually a bug, which you guys of course exploit to this insane extent ;)

Don't get me wrong I appreciate the effort but I do think it should be reworked and changed into something more plausible...

edit: I also think this trick needs it's own thread somewhere, I don't see any, because I think only a few elite pilots know about it and that just seems wrong to me..

First thing to know about this option is that the fact of doing consecutive boosts using select, DON'T MAKES YOU GOING FASTER !! what can makes you going faster is the ability of getting enough height to perform a br at the very begining of a lap.
My mate Pirahpac already shows this trick on his "pirapatch" video of ubermall several weeks ago, and i too, with my "vineta's new trick". This technique is known by all the video's viewers, and the access is public, no secret about it.
It's not a bug ! It's an ingenious use of a new option of the game only efficient on speedlaps.
IT REQUIRES ABILITY AND TRAINING !!
An average player WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO IMPROVE HIS TIMES without a serious training !
In counter strike the top players are able to perform headshots through the walls, it's a bug in the game but a very known trick wich requires skills and is allowed on the official contests.
In wipeout xl, it's possible to use some crazy high air shortcuts, it can also be considered as a bug but in my opinion the videos showing Asayyodah performing perfect laps are awesome and maybe one of the best entertainment stuff for the wipeout franchise.
We are trying to push the limit of the game further, and all the existing and FAIR tips are welcome (those wich requires ability). If pilots wants to compete on the rankings they better have to learn all the techniques, to find their owns or to simply give up.
And please mates, before sharing your conclusions on this, try it first on every track, it'll be more interesting to argue for or against if we all know what's this stuff is about ;)

gettinmoney662
28th May 2009, 12:23 PM
Why are people complaining about this trick affecting speed lap records? It's available to everyone to use so it's not like someone has an unfair advantage over somebody else.

JABBERJAW
28th May 2009, 12:37 PM
sounds like a bug to me, and it is not comparable to the shortcuts on xl. Since the select button is not used as part of the game. It doesn't matter if it requires skill, Hell, snaking in fzero takes alot of skill, but it doesn't make it good. But before judging, does the select actually stop the game? then when you go back the boost is easier? If so, this is bad

yeldar2097
28th May 2009, 12:40 PM
no, pressing select gives you a new turbo in real time so you have to be quick on the draw if you want it to work :+

lunar
28th May 2009, 12:40 PM
The argument is just what AnErare said in the quote at the start of this topic and I agree with him completely. It`s not good game design. That`s my problem with it. I agree with Leungbok that we have to practice and train hard. That`s not my issue with this.

Leungbok I don`t have any argument with you or the way you play. I`ve got no right to do that! :) You should do everything you can to get the fastest times you can. I`m glad you do and that you share your techniques. I don’t want to criticize any individuals, I am only talking about what I think is a bad addition to the way the game needs to be played, with boost select boost.



My personal view on that : I try to compete with the top pilots, when some of them find a new way of going faster, i MUST learn it !!

I agree with that. It`s my philosophy too. I`m not complaining about difficulty. I don`t come here and moan about having to do the Ubermall shortcuts (forward and reverse). When I get the chance I practice them so I will one day be able to do them for 5 laps in a phantom TT or online every time. If stuff is hard, that`s not relevant. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23V18K40XV0&feature=channel_page) lap is hard, but I have to learn to copy it not complain about it. I enjoy the challenge, but don`t see the value of jumping through hoops to get to the start of the lap. I`m grateful for people who show what the fastest techniques are. I really agree with Kanar about the top players. But I think Saturn Return summed up my feelings about the boost select boost technique.


I see it more as an exploit of the patch and don't think it represents a faster way around the track.

Finding a faster way around the track is what a racing game is supposed to be about. It doesn`t seem fair that someone might set a time that would have been a world record if only they had managed the boost – select – boost at the start. It`s an unnecessary barrier to going for fast laps, I think.

Trying to beat a lap like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LueyD8dsgCE) seems a worthwhile use of a pilots time. It`s a case of trying to beat a great racing line. Learning a trick just so that I can cross the start line in a position to compete with a ghost like this doesn`t seem a good use of my time. Select-Cancel wasn`t put in the game to give faster starts, it`s just that a (difficult) way has been found to exploit it. I`m not saying players who do this are doing anything bad, I`m saying it is a lack of testing of the game leading to a feature that adds nothing.


However, in my view, that's another reason why it would have been better off without this new feature, as those of us who want to keep our ranking up are obliged to go through the whole process again, with no real value at the end of it.

What really is the point of a "feature" where you have to pull off a button combo to get across the start line just in a position to pull off a fast lap? I don`t see what it adds to the game and what it has to do with racing.

With any game there will be people who test its limits and find loopholes to get better results. Sometimes the games are not strong enough to stand up to that, and a way to play is found that does not fit the concept of the game. It`s not the fault of the players. I just think this is unfortunate game design/lack of testing that adds unnecessary hassle to the game.

Anyway I`m glad you started a new topic, but let`s not blow this out of proportion, please. If some of us dislike this trick enough we can just stop playing speed lap. I think as AnErare says this feature should eventually "be reworked into something more plausible."

OBH
28th May 2009, 02:15 PM
Difficult to add to the conversation when lunar just summed up what i wanted to say perfectly :) I love watching this stuff, am nothing other than impressed and amazed by it, and am wholeheatedly trying to master some of it myself! :) but i do worry that racing lines will start to play second fiddle to "ways we can exploit things".

djKyoto
28th May 2009, 03:35 PM
Whats this boost select boost trick now? :|

IH8YOU
28th May 2009, 03:49 PM
get massive air / speed JUST BEFORE you cross the starting line - so you can do additional barrel rolls that normally woudln't be possible with a single boost. (link consecutive boosts back to back to get some altitude, and use that to BR and/or cut out some sections of track like with sebenco reverse).

It is semi-cheap, but it DOES require a lot skill to pull off with positive results.

That said, I figured this out pretty quickly on my own, played around with it, but never took it to SL times, as I'm a real man. ;)

leungbok
28th May 2009, 03:50 PM
What really is the point of a "feature" where you have to pull off a button combo to get across the start line just in a position to pull off a fast lap? I don`t see what it adds to the game and what it has to do with racing.
As i already said several times, try it mate, your judgement on the gain or not, on the difficulty or not, will be better !
As as already said too several times, using select to do a consecutive boost don't gives more speed in itself.
What gives speed :
- On ubermall : To use the b-s-b allows you to start the lap with a boost from the air and not from the ground, your ship is faster dive and it's a game's mechanic based on physics.

- On moa reverse, the trick is useless atm (like on most tracks). But this track isn't more a lines matter than the others with more br and shortcut opportunities. You can master the more difficult br that you can, if your lines aren't great, don't hope for a top rank !

- On moa forward and reverse, you can gain speed if you're able to boost+br at the begining of the lap, instead of only boosting. it's impossible for me with only one boost. With the select option, i can boost sufficiently far from the starting line, nose up (the boost helps me to nose up more than without) and then, before my nose drops, to use a second boost (using select when it works :lol) and really take off to be able of doing an extra br !
I'm sorry, mate,i disagree with you on that, for me it totally have with racing.
But really if SL decides to suppress or transform this option i'll continue the classical way.
But sometimes i try to imagine what they are thinking when they read some threads here.
For the br, i imagine that they were excited in the idea of releasing that new feature, maybe naively thinking "the fans will love that fun addition to the gameplay", if it was so, they had to be disapointed.
For the select-boost option, i like to imagine that they think (with a smile) "hey, look what those crazy fans are doing with the select option, lol" instead of "wtf, those stupid players are killing the sl contest by diverting the select option like that !".
When you suggest SL remove or change this feature, really NO WAY !
And what about our records obtained with the difficult learning of that technique ? It can be justified in the use of a cheat or an unvoluntary glitch ! Honestly, i would be very upset to see that happening !!

lunar
28th May 2009, 04:02 PM
I would think SL are thinking "****, why didn`t we see that?" I don`t know though....

If you ask me it`s time they recruited you and Pirhapac as testers. :banzai I`m serious - they should give the game to people who can find its outer limits!

I think they should make sure this technique doesn`t exist for future games/DLC. Maybe we`re never going to agree about that, but that`s what I mean by agreeing with AnErare in saying "it should be reworked and changed into something more plausible." I mean for future games and tracks.

But I totally agree with you there`s no way they should get rid of this technique for existing HD tracks and tables. It has to stay for these as times are already set. That horse is already out of the stable and is galloping across the field with a big smile on his face. :)

G'Kyl
28th May 2009, 05:01 PM
IH8YOU, thanks for the explanation! I didn't know about that at all. ALthough honestly, I still don't quite get it. ;)

Lunar pretty much sums it up for me as well.

Having said that, allow me to speak my mind: This is sh.t! Using anything that's not "in-game racing" brakes the game for me. I don't use shortcuts in WO 1 to 3 - but I find them more tolerable then this crap.

Out of curiosity: Do those who are using this trick also call the repeatable bug in Quantum Redshift, where you'd cross the finish line right after you started your lap if you went off-track at a certain spot, a valid way of producing record times? (We are talking 0.xx seconds here.) If you don't, where is the border between racing and silly? I'm actually asking, not trying to provoke you. :)

Ben

leungbok
28th May 2009, 05:06 PM
G-kyl, look at the video i have uploaded on youtube (link on the "wipeout hd-videos" thread) and after try this trick or sh*t or crap as you want and come back to discuss, then ;)

G'Kyl
28th May 2009, 05:41 PM
It does give you an advantage if you pull it off? Then I believe I have already made my point. :)

Ben

leungbok
28th May 2009, 05:49 PM
It gives you an advantage only if you have the skills to perform it !!
As for every racing technique on HD like brs, shortcuts...

AG-wolf
28th May 2009, 05:50 PM
wait wait wait, tell me this:

How is this any different than earlier wipeout games by just SAVING YOUR BOOST FROM ONE LAP and using it RIGHT before the beginning of the next lap, so that you get the speed from that boost, and you still have your boost for the next lap? I think everyone has done this.... The only thing using select does is allow you to reset your boost whenever you want, but it invalidates that lap.

leungbok
28th May 2009, 05:54 PM
Yes AG-wolf, but it seems that having the idea and ability to use it for performing a difficult stunt is unfair :?

JABBERJAW
28th May 2009, 06:02 PM
I see what it is now. I'm sure it requires skill, no doubt. still don't like it. That is why there is a gentlemens' agreement not to turn around at the beginning in wipeout xl, or wipeout 64 to get faster race times since the timer won't start until you get to the line. Turning around like that is a nuisance at the beginning of the race, and since no one does it, you don't have to waste all you time turning around to get a better start. Same as this, really, and not the same as saving a turbo for the next lap, all wipeouts have that in them. This just seems like a much bigger nuisance, however, at least it doesn't affect sr and time trial.

SaturnReturn
28th May 2009, 06:20 PM
Wow! What a can of worms that one little comment opened up (love it :rock).

Firstly, before anyone chimes in I do think they should watch the video and try to do this trick themselves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhcvU8VPjm4
See? It's impossibly difficult. It's not just pushing a button and is probably one of the most challenging things to do in the entire game.

In some ways I still don't like it. In others it's pretty impressive. Meh!

G'Kyl
28th May 2009, 06:46 PM
Maybe I should make the crucial argument more clear: Difficult or not does not matter - at all! It's outside the "actual game" - and that alone makes it a game-breaker for me. That's it, that's my entire complaint. ;)

Using a boost just before the other lap is a game-internal feature. These craft have a boost - go ahead and use it. These craft don't have a select button - so why would I wanna use it?

If for some reason pressing CIRCLE-SQUARE-START-L1-R3-CIRCLE in the menu would make you go faster, would you seriously consider using it?

You see: Kirk never beat the Kobayashi Maru - he only beat the system. And the guy who seemingly hacked WipEout Pulse (was it Pulse?)? He never beat the game - he only beat the system.

Why, coming to think about it: Hacking the game certainly was ONE heck of a job - maybe we SOULD applaud that skilled guy after all...

Ben

RJ O'Connell
28th May 2009, 06:52 PM
It's not nearly as bad as the respawn glitch in Wipeout Fusion PAL, the good thing is it isn't usable in an actual race or fixed-lap TT, so I'm not as worried.

AG-wolf
28th May 2009, 07:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhcvU8VPjm4

Hmm, so what is he doing? This?:

1) Turbo w/ pitch up
2) Barrel Roll
3) Select to invalidate lap
4) Turbo again
5) Pass start/finish line, ; get new turbo with lap start
6) receive boost from barrel roll

If you ask me, that's f***ing awesome and at the same time totally difficult. The concept of "speed lap" is to get the fastest lap... there's a reason it is separate from the full 3/4/5 laps of "Time Trial" mode.

I understand what Al's saying with turning around at the beginning of races in the older games, but as far as this is concerned, I have no issue with it.

leungbok
28th May 2009, 07:11 PM
Hmm, so what is he doing? This?:1) Turbo w/ pitch up
2) Barrel Roll
3) Select to invalidate lap
4) Turbo again
5) Pass start/finish line, ; get new turbo with lap start
6) receive boost from barrel roll

Correct, but you must place the "2)" after the "5)" ;)

Mu5
28th May 2009, 07:25 PM
Wow - that is incredible skill :D

Cant see how you could do all that - physically - on the standard PS3 Dual Shock pad. If you could re-map select to a different button ...then maybe :D

Im thinking he is using a 'custom' pad - to allow for select to be mapped to a normal button / sensible position?

SaturnReturn
28th May 2009, 07:34 PM
G'Kyl - I think I know the point you're making. However, then you compare this trick to using a cheat code in the menu. This trick is nothing like that. Other people consider it in the same category as shortcuts. I don't, as it can't be used in races or time trial like shortcuts can, so it creates a fundmental difference between the modes. However, if you had to categorise this trick, then it would be far more at home in a category along with shortcuts than it would with a category that included cheat codes or hacks.

Also, you say, "These craft have a boost", but they "don't have a select button". Well, surely, as it's a game, they have whatever they are programmed to have. They seem to magically regain this boost ability after each lap. There's no reason, as far as I can see, that they shouldn't have a button in the ship which is precisely equivalent to the select button.

Mu5 - I don't think leungbok would be using a custom pad. As he is a pioneer of all these SL techniques, and knowing the crazy stuff he's pulled off in the past, I think (hope) he has to much "SL honour" (:P) for that kind of thing.

leungbok
28th May 2009, 07:41 PM
Mu5 - I don't think leungbok would be using a custom pad. As he is a pioneer of all these SL techniques, and knowing the crazy stuff he's pulled off in the past, I think (hope) he has to much "SL honour" (:P) for that kind of thing.

Ha ha, thanks mate ! No, no custom paddle for me :lol
But if someone like the obstinate jabberjaw find a way of using a neggie on wohd, i'll probably give it a try ;)

Darkdrium777
28th May 2009, 08:12 PM
I've already expressed myself on the first video of pirhapac:
it is an unforeseen exploit of something added inside the game to make it more convenient.
Takes skill to do it? Sure. It doesn't make it any more valid.
There are plenty of examples in plenty of games where performing something takes skills, yet it's not considered a valid way of beating the game. Look at speedruns of mario for example, they skip entire levels. It takes skill to do it, was the game designed with that in mind? No. Is it valid? No, it's an exploit.

What we've got to ask ourselves here is: "Why was cancelling your lap and regaining your turbo added?"
100% sure it has nothing to do with performing a barrel roll at the start of the race.
It was so you didn't have to run two laps to make a record attempt, only one. That's it, nothing else.

If not: I found a way (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120986&postcount=52) to make a faster time than Wotan on Sebenco. It's part of the game, so surely I can use it and gain first place on the leaderboard? The answer is no. Because it has nothing to do with finding the race line, it's about exploiting something inside the game.
Which is why I erased my time.
And if I remember leungbok you were interested in finding it to make that faster time. This is where we disagree completely.

pirahpac
28th May 2009, 08:26 PM
:bat:bat :bat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVc64TBeyTQ :bat :bat

KIGO1987
28th May 2009, 08:30 PM
MrPacman your back, thought you dont post on the zone anymore

pirahpac
28th May 2009, 08:34 PM
cuz i like this little batpac :bat :bat :bat and for support my batmate leungbok :bat :bat :bat

JABBERJAW
28th May 2009, 08:35 PM
: perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion

I don't agree with perversely, or reason :)

I never said it was illegal. I said I don't like it. the developers didn't add that for that pupose, but to make you be able to use a turbo at the start of a lap, so you wouldn't have to do another full lap before getting a good start. All I said, is I think that technique sucks, like I think snaking in fzero sucks. Neither are illegal, and if I go for best times in lap mode, I will certainly use that technique. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

OH, one second. so does that mean if I press start, then set myself up for a barrel roll better, by pitching and tapping like a nut, to make sure I get every barrel roll as I hit start again, that those records would be fine for time trial mode?

KGB
28th May 2009, 08:36 PM
Also, you say, "These craft have a boost", but they "don't have a select button". Well, surely, as it's a game, they have whatever they are programmed to have. They seem to magically regain this boost ability after each lap. There's no reason, as far as I can see, that they shouldn't have a button in the ship which is precisely equivalent to the select button.

Are you telling me that they are strapped in to that cockpit with something other than a DS3. The cheating bastards!!!!!

In the face of a little provocation leungbok, I think you are doing a great job in sticking up for yourself. I personally have no real opinion about this as I am not a big fan of SL. But I do remember you once deleted your whole game to stop a time you didn't feel correct to be entered in to the tables which was admirable stuff indeed. You obviously feel this select thing is part of the game.

This to me is just pushing the game further than some people want to push it, me included. :lol

AnErare
28th May 2009, 08:55 PM
Leungbok, I think you misunderstood or I have been vague with my expression.. I don't think this b-s-b is s**t or c**p, I actually appreciate the effort and the way it is used. Judging from the initial video on vineta fwd it already made clear this is one tough m*f* swaying around with the ship.

As I said it appears this was not what the design had in mind and the outcome is so implausible. I do not in anyway want to pretend I can compete in SL, I just can not do that, neither do I want to put any blame on anyone using the trick. That's why I said I do like the looks of it. And I was serious about that and still am! :)

I didn't think a lot of people knew about it, and I was right. You can see that in this thread. The facts there are video's online doesn't change that per se, also not that many people know you guys post :)

In this way at least the information is more accesible. That's also what this entire forum is about and I feel we all should honour that.

Now, let's all be friendly with eachother again and share the game we love as we have been doing before. I may have been dismal in my post in the video's thread but I was, about the availability of the information being obscure. My only goal has been to make it more accesible.

Cheers,

AnE

leungbok
28th May 2009, 09:01 PM
And if I remember leungbok you were interested in finding it to make that faster time. This is where we disagree completely.

What ???
I was interested to know what was your so mysterious find on seb reverse, yes.
But once you told me that it was a total glitch (with no need of any skill so totally different with the select boost trick) i told you i wasn't interested anymore ! RIGHT OR WRONG ????.
And what does mean that the game must be played in that or that way ?
And i can feel in your answer that i don't deserve my rank on the board because i'm using a trick like the select-boost ?
I play wipeout since the first game was released on the psx and i finished all the wipeout games at 100 % because this franchise is the only one racer for me. So i don't care of your opinion on how to play the game. Are you the official referee ? Or the supreme expert of speedlaps and how it must be played ?
You suppose i'm not a fair player wich use a glitch right, and my anulpha's laps have nothing to do with racing or lines.
You're kinda young to give me lessons, you know ! You first have to learn how to respect others opinion like Jabberjaw do even if he disagree.

KIGO1987
28th May 2009, 09:07 PM
****ing Leungbok is king on Wipeout HD TT and SLs now days. **** me, looking through your videos you've got good. Come a fair way from the Pulse days ****:eek

andybob35
28th May 2009, 09:18 PM
In my opinion this is further exploiting the game... and since i wont see it online im not really fussed. I welcomed the whole 'select' thing so you could restart your lap, at least that way i dont get bored doing two laps for one near good lap then repeating...again and again and again. Ill agree with Leungbok, skill & patience is needed to perform this trick but a true test of a good time/racer minus shortcuts/exploits (or whatever) is moa reverse.. I think there one barrel roll at the start but not much else so is the fairest time. Others will disagree im sure.

To be fair only the die-hard SL fans will be using this to gain an extra 00.00.10 but fair game to them, its just not cricket in my opinion. Back in the day when i played 2097, i only had my mates times to beat (would dread that memory card with new times to beat..) and recently seen asa's shortcuts on 2097 (hats off dude, never thought of it myself!) but thanks all to the internet…

When it comes down to Speed laps and Time Trial game modes, I stick with Gran Turismo as its without exploits, just racing lines and skill (provided your using the same car/tuned etc). And if I want that arcade experience from a racing game, I play wipeout instead as I can literally wipe away the opposition (ha ha no respawn offline).

So to sum up, if you can do it, do it! But once one person does it, we ALL have to do it, well to keep a high rank anyway… meh

leungbok
28th May 2009, 09:19 PM
Don't care Anerare, i understood your point of view, there's no problem between us :)
About the fact that lot of people don't know the b-s-b or haven't seen the video, it don't prevent them to speak about it.

Pirah, thanks mate, you bloody cheater ! ;)

Kigo, thank you too :beer

Darkdrium777
28th May 2009, 10:03 PM
My mate Pirahpac already shows this trick on his "pirapatch" video of ubermall several weeks ago, and i too, with my "vineta's new trick". This technique is known by all the video's viewers, and the access is public, no secret about it.There are many videos with public access to exploits possible in other video games. The fact that it's public doesn't mean it is automatically ok to do it yourself.

Also, if we were to use every "ingenious options" inside the game to compete, then zone wouldn't be a matter of survival, just the one who can tape his controller and afford the electricity bill to keep his PS3 running the longest.
And:

It's not a bug ! It's an ingenious use of a new option of the game only efficient on speedlaps.is not a point you can make.
Because arguably what we know as the zone glitch could be considered an ingenious use of something on Anulpha Pass to reach the highest score (Which it is). Yet SL is going to fix that, and is currently working on the fix. I guess not every "ingenious uses" are allowed eh?


IT REQUIRES ABILITY AND TRAINING !!So does any exploit in any game. It takes practise to be able to perform even exploits, so I don't see how this is a point.


An average player WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO IMPROVE HIS TIMES without a serious training !This is true. Perhaps the only thing true in your entire post.


In counter strike the top players are able to perform headshots through the walls, it's a bug in the game but a very known trick wich requires skills and is allowed on the official contests.You admit yourself it's a bug. You are comparing your boost-select-boost to a well known bug. I don't see how this can help your case. The fact that it's "accepted" still doesn't mean it's not a bug or an exploit. You admit yourself it is. I have no further comment on this point.


In wipeout xl, it's possible to use some crazy high air shortcuts, it can also be considered as a bug but in my opinion the videos showing Asayyodah performing perfect laps are awesome and maybe one of the best entertainment stuff for the wipeout franchise.Wait. There are many things here: first you say shortcuts in XL can be considered bugs. Okay, so shortcuts in HD should be considered bugs as well. All shortcuts are bugs, or are not bugs, you can't select case by case, or your logic is broken. Then the entertainment part: it's fun doesn't mean it's ok. It was fun to get out of the maps in Resistance Fall of Man to go see the teddy bear on the rock outside of the map. It's still an exploit, and a patch came out to prevent it. They got rid of the fun with the teddy bear oh noes! D:


We are trying to push the limit of the game further, and all the existing and FAIR tips are welcome (those wich requires ability).Anything in a game requires ability. But not everything inside a game means it can be used. You are trying to push the limit of the game. In doing so, you have discovered shortcuts and barrel rolls. Both of which I have nothing against. But now you are using something implemented with the intent of making things more convenient as an exploit to go even faster. As I said, not everything in the game should be used. Getting out of maps in Resistance was in the game, yet using it could lead to a ban until it was patched. Originally for the easter egg (the teddy bear), people started sniping from that spot under the map, killing anyone in the enemy base. And everything in that was fair, as arguably anyone could do it, it was available for everyone to do! You see the flaw in this argument now? And public videos were also available! Anyone could learn how to do it!


If pilots wants to compete on the rankings they better have to learn all the techniques, to find their owns or to simply give up.In this argumentation I find this incredibly insulting. So everyone should learn to do the boost select boost or give up? Well go **** yourself. Seriously. This is incredibly insulting and demotivating to anyone putting time and dedication into the game. I am appalled that nobody has picked up on this yet, especially in the context of this forum where everything is about encouraging the others. The fact that you say "simply give up" shows how much you care about those other people. :| And those other people includes pretty much everyone who's ever posted here, including myself. So thank you for the insult, but no thanks.

Oh yeah, just before someone comes in with "try it first then you'll know what you're talking about!"
I did, and it seemed even more like an exploit when I managed to land it.
So:
And please mates, before sharing your conclusions on this, try it first on every track, it'll be more interesting to argue for or against if we all know what's this stuff is about ;)is not a point you can make. It doesn't matter in other games if you're able to perform an exploit or not before you pass it off as an exploit, so why should it in this case? I have no idea how people managed to make tanks invisible and shoot through walls in Warhawk before it was patched. But I should know how to do it myself before I say it is an exploit? No. And: "But it's in the game! etc.", please it's still an exploit even if it's in the game doesn't mean it's ok.

My point is: your argumentation is full of flaws, and is even insulting to other pilots. Had you presented this better maybe I could have agreed with you but the way it is defended now I can't see myself ever agreeing with such ridiculous claims.
I could go on and on about examples just like I did now, and point out to you why such things that we have not accepted now, in WipEout HD or in other games, could be accepted using your very own points.

Ultimately, the decision rests with SL, and I wouldn't be surprised one bit if select was patched out eventually. The weak argumentation doesn't even help in it's favour.

Addendum:

And i can feel in your answer that i don't deserve my rank on the board because i'm using a trick like the select-boost ?You deserve your spot. Where have you got this from my previous post? :lol Admittedly you are better than I at SpeedLap.

I play wipeout since the first game was released on the psx and i finished all the wipeout games at 100 % because this franchise is the only one racer for me.Has nothing to do with this. The fact that you played any game that ever existed doesn't change anything.

So i don't care of your opinion on how to play the game.Or anyone else's? Why post this thread then?

Are you the official referee ? Or the supreme expert of speedlaps and how it must be played ?
[...]
You're kinda young to give me lessons, you know !Ad hominem, I expected better. But really I am not so surprised anymore, considering what you said to every single pilot other than pirhapac above, that they should "simply give up" if they weren't able to do the trick, something many people have already admitted to in this very thread. So you heard it people, give up.

You suppose i'm not a fair player wich use a glitch right, and my anulpha's laps have nothing to do with racing or lines.Again, I have no idea where you got this. I said I disagreed with the use of the trick, not the rest of the lap. Learn to read please. And nowhere, absolutely nowhere, did I target you or pirhapac about using this technique, I merely said I disagree with it's use and explained why.

You first have to learn how to respect others opinion like Jabberjaw do even if he disagree.I respect opinions. You think it's a valid technique, I don't. That's it, we're done according to your first post and my first post.
But now you come over with ad hominem attacks on my person, and you talk to me about respect? You tell everyone who can't master the trick to give up, and you talk to me about respect?
You should host your own comedy show. Except it would be very sad instead of funny.

SaturnReturn
28th May 2009, 10:06 PM
I don't know what the mario exploit is. But if it skips the whole level and therefore gives a faster time, then it's something very different. Leungbok still has to carry out the rest of the lap. He still has to do everything else very well for this to be of any benefit. People keep saying that it doesn't matter that it's difficult to do. Well I think it does. The implication from some people seems to be that this time isn't deserved. If leungbok discovered this by accident and it sent him straight to number one with a ludicrous time of say 2 seconds, then that would be very different. But the time he achieved still requires all the same skills as the rest of the game, and in fact, an extra level of effort just to give him that extra edge (much like many of the shortcuts). He's skipped nothing, he's hacked nothing, he's cheated nothing. It's the fact that it requires, e.g. control, reflex, patience, and a near perfect lap (the same as ever) that makes this a deserved time, and as such not comparable to these other exploits.

If people don't like the fact that the trick is there, then that's fine, but I don't think anyone can be blamed for using....no, not using it, rather achieving it, now that it is.

Cerium
28th May 2009, 10:14 PM
Hrmm... clever trick. Though, it's pretty obvious the developers didn't intend for it to be used like this.

Personally, I don't like it. It removes an aspect of skill from the game itself in favor of explicit knowledge of an exploit and the ability to utilize it.
Being remotely competitive in speed-lap/time trial was hard enough when you had to figure out each shortcut and the optimal place to use your boost; but that was part of the game itself -- knowing the tracks well enough to run them faster than anyone else.
Now, we're adding the arms race of who can exploit a convenience feature for the most gain at the start. Sure, right now it's just two boosts on selected tracks, but I'm pretty sure you could pull off three boosts on Moa forward and skip the first hairpin entirely. And, I'm even more sure that with enough time, someone will find other spots and better executions of the b-s-b trick.

I've seen several points argued on this topic and, really, it's like comparing apples to oranges. No one can deny that the exploit itself requires skill and is entertaining to watch. However, it's also clearly not how the game was intended to work.
Darkdrium brought up a great point about the glitch he found that let him get ridiculous times on Sebenco. According to the argument for the b-s-b exploit, his trick should be OK too -- It's how the game was programmed to work, so why not use it? Because it's too easy to use or because the advantage it grants is too great? Tch... bullshit excuses, in my opinion. It should be all-or-nothing. Either use every exploit and glitch to your advantage, or play a clean game the way it was (obviously) meant to be played.

The real unfortunate part about this is that the "bug" will be tough to fix at this point. Not from a development standpoint, mind you, but from a political one. If SL patches it now, players could opt not to update for the sole purpose of retaining use of this trick; which puts players who update at a severe disadvantage as far as speed-laps go, almost requiring that future updates retain this functionality (and, worse yet, almost validating the dumbass excuses people make advocating it's use).


Bah, whatever. The end result, regardless of the amount of ranting I do, is that speed lap just lost any entertainment value it once had. Why bother competing when the only way to keep up is to find ways to exploit the game's programming?

...sigh...
I suppose I should take solace in the fact that it won't effect actual multiplayer races.

Darkdrium777
28th May 2009, 10:18 PM
Yes Saturn, as I said I didn't talk about the rest of the lap because I find it valid, something leungbok had not picked up on when he uses his ad hominem fallacies. I am perfectly fine with the rest of the lap, IMO (In My Opinion) the rest of the lap is how the game should be played.

However, boost select boost is still arguable. It was introduced in 1.30, which means that times like the one obtained in leungbok's video would have been impossible to reach. That alone makes it a big enough problem. If you (general you, the reader, not specifically you Saturn) are incapable of seeing the dilemma I think there is a problem with how you will view this discussion.

Personally, as I've said, I disagree with the use, mainly because it is an unintended use of something introduced recently. That's it.
Others are free to disagree, as I've said. However others are not free to attack me, insult me or talk about my age. :|
Or demotivate others under my watch. You've seen what happened to Infaxsu.

leungbok
28th May 2009, 10:18 PM
Darkdrium, you really think that you can convince anyone with this post ?
i can do the same and look at all your previous posts and out of the context i will use them to make my argumentation right !
The select-boost trick requires skills and is a fair technique on the opinion of the top racers on sl, so your opinion is nothing for me as i already told you.

thanks saturn anyway, but i can defend myself against any ayatollah full of himself and absolutely persuaded to have always reason.

Darkdrium, when i said that people can give up or learn the new techniques, it's because the top ranked players are already using those techniques. I don't want to discourage anybody but i prefer to tell the truth to people, how do your mind works to thinks that it was an insulting intention ? I also said it was possible to find others ways of improving his times but if your goal is to reach top ranking without b-s-b, shortcuts or difficult brs, only with lines you're dreaming, it's impossible now all i can share to help people improving i do (videos, advices...) even if that's mean they will beat me. The insulting thing is comparing me with Infaxsu. And also trying to show me as a twisty cheater, all your argumentation is insulting in fact, i didn't read all your post, all i have noticed is that i only said one thing true, lol, glad to know that master. Strange thing how each time you're coming in a debate the discussing is going quickly out of proportions.

Amorbis
28th May 2009, 10:27 PM
This seems to be a very tricky subject, I can't help but be on the fence with this one. One one hand you could say skilled pilots such as Leungbok and Pirahpac have found a new way of improving their lap times, where as on the other hand could say that a method has been found to 'exploit' one of the game's features.

Personally, I don't see this as much different to a new shortcut. You could say that this is a new type of shortcut. After all, it requires a certain amount of skill and patience to achieve. Looking at Leungbok and Pirahpac's videos you can see a lot of time and effort has gone into improving their times. I respect the effort that they have put in to the speed lap scene, if it weren't for them I would not have the times on speed lap that I have now.

This new 'trick' has its merits and drawbacks. It enables skilled players to get incredible times but the less devoted players times start to age and are no longer as good as they once were.

I'm not condoning the use of this method, I'm not too keen on it myself, but it does take skill and has now been implemented into the game. I agree with Cerium, it's here now and it'll be very hard to do anything about. I'm happy enough to live with it, it only affects speed lap in which I rarely divulge. As long as multiplayer is fine I won't be complaining.

If I could have a go at it I would, but I'm not very devoted to speed lap and my SEGA Saturn USB pad lacks a select button :P.

andybob35
28th May 2009, 10:32 PM
Zone-glitch, respawn-glitch, single race time-glitches, select-boost glitch (im calling it a glitch now) are part and parcel of this game now. Eventually they'll go but until then...

Just go race :lol

Darkdrium777
28th May 2009, 10:40 PM
Darkdrium, you really think that you can convince anyone with this post ?Yes, I do believe I have better chances by providing reasonable arguments and ample examples than by using ad hominem fallacies like you seem to be doing now.

i can do the same and look at all your previous posts and out of the context i will use them to make my argumentation right !The quote feature is an intended part of this forum. Use it. Personal attacks are not, use them and get banned.

The select-boost trick requires skills and is a fair technique on the opinion of the top racers on sl, so your opinion is nothing for me as i already told you.Ok, so opinions are ranked now, just like the times on the leaderboard. Where has free speech gone to? As I've asked already, why post this thread if you don't expect people to answer? Especially answer in a way that opposes your argumentation? You do realize there are two sides on this argumentation, right?


any ayatollah full of himself and absolutely persuaded to have always reason.Who is surprised of the ad hominem in here? I am not.
Show me I am wrong, and I'll accept it. But right now you are showing me that I am right by constantly discrediting yourself in my eyes with those attacks on my person. :lol

I invite you to reply to my points. Do it without using anything against my person, and I will resume discussion, forgetting about this.
Don't stop the attacks, and we'll see what will happen.

ericd7
28th May 2009, 10:43 PM
It's one more difficulty to do a perfect lap as some Barrel Roll which are difficult to do.
So i think it's good improvment for the game. :banzai
Maybe with practice it will become more easier for us.
Anyway it takes part of the game now, thanks to leungbok for finding it

SaturnReturn
28th May 2009, 10:48 PM
Darkdrium - I didn't see your big post as it appeared as I was typing mine. You do indeed say it's deserved based on the skill, which I think is fair. I can see why leungbok's a bit defensive about it too though. I think it's the comparisons to all the other glitches which, to me at least, have fundamental differences to this one, that could be seen to imply that it is undeserved, even if unintentionally. That's why I just wanted to mention it.

Anyway, I think all the critical points have been made on the topic and some, including me, are just repeating what's been said before. So I'll refrain from further comment unless I have something original to say (unlikely at this time of night :p).

Darkdrium777
28th May 2009, 10:52 PM
Yes, maybe you are right. My comparisons with other glitches/exploit in other games may seem unfair, and with that I agree with you. :) (PS: See leungbok, had you said something like that, I would have agreed! :o)

Again I state that leungbok deserves his rank on speed lap.

Just to be sure that there is no misunderstanding about that, and that we are only talking about the technique boost select boost and nothing else.
---

Darkdrium, when i said that people can give up or learn the new techniques, it's because the top ranked players are already using those techniques. I don't want to discourage anybody but i prefer to tell the truth to people, how do your mind works to thinks that it was an insulting intention ?How my mind works? No, it's simply how it reads. Here, I will translate in french just for you:
"Si les joueurs veulent être en compétition dans les records, ils doivent utiliser toutes les techniques, trouver les leurs, ou simplement abandoner."
This implies that if players are unable to do any of the two first points, they should give up, which is very nice.

The insulting thing is comparing me with Infaxsu.Where did I say leungbok is like Infaxsu, apart from right now when I am asking this question? I just said that I would not allow anyone demotivating the others under my watch, just like when I called out Infaxsu for what he said to Al. I am only talking about history, and the only thing it has to do with this discussion is that you've demotivated others by saying they should give up. That's it.

And also trying to show me as a twisty cheater, all your argumentation is insulting in factI show you as a cheater? Okay, please show me where in my post have I said I am talking about your lap on Anulpha Pass. WHERE? It's nowhere, don't bother looking for it because it doesn't exist. What I am talking about is boost select boost, why I think it shouldn't be used (It is an unintended use of something added recently). I also argued against all of your points for why it should be used with my own arguments and examples. I don't think you are a cheater, I honestly don't! How many times am I going to have to say: I am not targeting you or anyone else in this discussion, I am only reasonably discussing the boost select boost technique?!
In French: j'ai jamais dis que t'es un tricheur, j'ai jamais dis que pirahpac qui utilise aussi cette technique est un tricheur, je fais juste discuter la technique et j'expose mes idées pourquoi je pense que ca ne devrait pas être utilisé, c'est Ã* dire que c'est une utilisation de quelque chose de nouveau qui n'a pas été ajouté afin d'être utilisé Ã* cette fin. VoilÃ*.

Strange thing how each time you're coming in a debate the discussing is going quickly out of proportions.Yes, that tends to happen when someone starts an argumentation.

leungbok
28th May 2009, 11:33 PM
Darkdrium i start to be tired (it's late here) and i'll try to be clear and not misunderstood.
When i posted the link of my video showing the boost-select-boost on the "wipeout hd videos" thread, the first reactions i had was that this trick was unfair. After that i have said what i thought about that, Saturn gave a try on the trick and even if he didn't totally changes his opinion he understood better the trick. With following post i felt too that members reacting on the subject didn't know exactly what it was about ! Severall pilots didn't even seen the video, but talked about it. I kindly told them "please, try" and we'll discuss after. Is that insulting ?

You ask me to answer to all your arguments but did you answered to that one : Originally Posted by Darkdrium777
And if I remember leungbok you were interested in finding it to make that faster time. This is where we disagree completely.
What ???
I was interested to know what was your so mysterious find on seb reverse, yes.
But once you told me that it was a total glitch (with no need of any skill so totally different with the select boost trick) i told you i wasn't interested anymore ! RIGHT OR WRONG ????.

You try to make me pass for the bad guy, but your methods stinks really because with that sentence "and if i remember..." you're implying that i'm searching to any way to improve my times even if it's glitches or cheats. If don't, explain me what was the goal here. My defensive reaction started from that ! But maybe i didn't understood the real intention of this sentence, english is not my native tongue !

Just give me an answer on that and i'll probably apologize and all !

Darkdrium777
28th May 2009, 11:45 PM
Darkdrium i start to be tired (it's late here) and i'll try to be clear and not misunderstanded.
When i posted the link of my video showing the boost-select-boost on the "wipeout hd videos" thread, the first reactions i had was that this trick was unfair. After that i have said what i thought about that, Saturn gave a try on the trick and even if he didn't totally changes his opinion he understood better the trick. With following post i felt too that members reacting on the subject didn't know exactly what it was about ! Severall pilots didn't even seen the video, but talked about it. I kindly told them "please, try" and we'll discuss after. Is that insulting ?No. I have not said it was.


You ask me to answer to all your arguments but did you answered to that one : Originally Posted by Darkdrium777
And if I remember leungbok you were interested in finding it to make that faster time. This is where we disagree completely.
What ???
I was interested to know what was your so mysterious find on seb reverse, yes.
But once you told me that it was a total glitch (with no need of any skill so totally different with the select boost trick) i told you i wasn't interested anymore ! RIGHT OR WRONG ????.

You try to make me pass for the bad guy, but your methods stinks really because with that sentence "and if i remember..." you're implying that i'm searching to any way to improve my times even if it's glitchs or cheats. If don't explain me what was the goal here. My defensive reaction started from that ! But maybe i didn't understood the real intention of this sentence, english is not my native tongue !I apologize, it is my mistake.
I have since deleted this PM (Or I can't find it). I remembered your interest in this exploit and that is all, because as soon as I posted in the bugs report thread you said you were going to find out about it yourself (this post is now deleted), which is what I mainly remember.

Again you are not a cheater in my eyes, if this can clear up everything.
I still stand by my idea that the technique should not be used because it is something it was not intended for.

lunar
28th May 2009, 11:46 PM
in my opinion. It should be all-or-nothing. Either use every exploit and glitch to your advantage, or play a clean game the way it was (obviously) meant to be played.

That was what I didn`t have the commitment to say, maybe.

Perhaps if the game allows you to do it, you are allowed to do it. If the game then allows you to do things that no longer make sense to you, then the game is broken. It`s about the way the game (and games) are built. We don`t need to make this personal and turn this into "Jaytech 2: Attack of the Select Button." This BSB trick is a fact and a tricky one, but nothing will get rid of it. Who remembers the old "play to win" debate about shortcuts? It`s relevant. :D Where are the search function ninjas?

I do think Cerium`s post (which the quote links to) sums it up very very well. This stunt isn`t a game-breaker, but certainly makes the speed-lap competition a bit broken for many of us. That`s our choice and it`s the choice of others to enjoy it. There are still many other ways to play.

As KGB said, Leungbok is a top pilot, and he does all this on an SDTV, afaik, which is heroic whichever way I look at it. :D

leungbok
29th May 2009, 12:08 AM
Ok Dark, i felt so much negative reactions about the b-s-b (in fact i thought people will say "oh great, let's try that, it looks fun !" lol) that i was maybe a few paranoïd too, your reaction now proves that you're not the obstinate kid i was saying. So i apologize, in french "excuse moi Dark, t'es pas un gamin, et ton avis vaux le mien (mais je preferes le mien, lol)"
Oh, and for the discuss about your find on sebenco reverse, it was on the arena's chatbox with pirhapac where you told us what it was about, and i told you that it was not interesting after all.
And i'm also totally sorry if i had discouraged pilots in my post where i was using the words "give up". It was a clumsy way of saying that the sl phantom top 10 rank is becoming so insane, lol, that it's impossible to reach it without mastering all the techniques. But if your goal is not to reach the top 10, but only to have fun with the game, never give up please, and you have all my respect too, the only fact of playing wipeout gives you my respect and sympathy.

Lunar, lol. but i'm so used with this old tv that it's not an unfair advantage.
As you said, it's a question of choices. And if you have fun, thats what the games are made for. For me you know the no-br option brokes the game aswell but i gave it a try in the Epsilon's pressure tournament. It was fun but... Gahhh, i definitely prefer br on ! :lol

djKyoto
29th May 2009, 12:34 AM
I didn't know there was even a button to unvalidate a lap.

Having seen this B-S-B (more like BS) method, I won't be trying it anytime, cause if you ask me it's pretty lame tbh (nice find however) :\

I'm not that anal about TT's to be pulling off exploits like that anyway. :|

And yes, I still don't know where this SB Rev Shortcut is and I rather not know.

Mu5
29th May 2009, 01:30 AM
To do all of this at the start, and then get a perfect lap .... is truly stuff of legend, and I respect you sir :D

Right ...so let me get this straight? :D

1) point at the start line
2) Pull Up (left thumb on down)
3) Hit Boost
4) Cancel boost (left thumb on Select )
5) Hit Boost Again
<-- Cross Start Line -->
6) Perform BR (left thumb on pad)
7)...land and boost

Have I got it right? :)

JABBERJAW
29th May 2009, 02:30 AM
wow, lots of posts here. I don't like it personally, because it is I feel something stupid I need to do at the beginning of the lap the get a good time. Personally, I love shortcuts, like chengchou reverse or terafumos (awesome jump here), but don't like street fighter, doing some funky move for a boost. I have complained about the game being way too easy and only being about weapons (which it is in multiplayer), so maybe if there was some stupid ass technique that was hard as hell to do that increased your speed (enough to pull away, not .1), I might like it. Basically because wall riding doesn't affect your ship. Ok, off topic a little.

you may get your wish on that negcon, but probably not until after the NA convention

How many tracks does this affect?

TheFrostE
29th May 2009, 03:17 AM
well here goes my opinion...i dont really care either way. Look at aArnauds videos from his runs through XL with the shortcuts, those also weren't intended to be used as he used them in the game BUT the times still stand. me personally, am not a fan of speed laps or TT. i play Wipeout for the competition against others, not against a clock. ( although i am very fond of zone mode ). i know im a good pilot, and ive been playing for years, so if ppl REALLY REALLY want to be in that top 10 for a few tracks and will stop at nothing to find new tricks to do it then have it . I just dont need a computer screen with numbers and names displayed to tell me im good.

In conclusion , I love all the pilots here from all over the world with different opinions, play the game as you want...as long as you dont stop playing wipeout ever and HAVE FUN WITH IT !

Cheers :beer
FrostE out

AG-wolf
29th May 2009, 03:55 AM
wow, half this thread is tl;dr...

it's like snaking and shift boosting in F-Zero GX all over again...


you may get your wish on that negcon, but probably not until after the NA conventionI might be able to pull off a NeGcon if I have enough time and patience ;)

Constrictor
29th May 2009, 06:24 AM
Firstly, before anyone chimes in I do think they should watch the video and try to do this trick themselves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhcvU8VPjm4
See? It's impossibly difficult. It's not just pushing a button and is probably one of the most challenging things to do in the entire game.

In some ways I still don't like it. In others it's pretty impressive. Meh!

Even I'm not interested in this skill or doing it myself (my last SL is months ago and I'm also struggling w/ d-pad BRs ... ) I'm really curious how this looks from the 'controllers' perspective. So, if there is any time left to post a (spliscreen) vid of the controller handling while performing those stunts plz do so. THX.

leungbok
29th May 2009, 07:43 AM
To do all of this at the start, and then get a perfect lap .... is truly stuff of legend, and I respect you sir :D

Right ...so let me get this straight? :D

1) point at the start line
2) Pull Up (left thumb on down)
3) Hit Boost
4) Cancel boost (left thumb on Select )
5) Hit Boost Again
<-- Cross Start Line -->
6) Perform BR (left thumb on pad)
7)...land and boost

Have I got it right? :)

Yes, that's it !
You have to do the thumb combo very fast and sometimes the select trick don't works and you start the lap with few speed, but fortunately you have lot of other laps :lol

Maybe the thing i had to say first about the boost-select-boost is the fact that it's fun to do !
Really, mates, try it ! You can dislike this option and don't want to use it for many reasons, but give it a try. The feeling when you fly over all of the last straight on vineta forward for example is awesome ! It's hard to do it consistently and it often fails, but when it works : Whaouuu !!! Big adrenaline rush.

@Jabberjaw. "how many tracks does this affect?" Hey, mate that's not a plague ;)
In fact it's (atm lol) possible to use it with speed gain on vineta forward, ubermall forward, anulpha forward and reverse, metropia forward and reverse but on those 2 last tracks it's Too much difficult so i'm not sure it can helps. All the records on metropia were made by the top ranked pilots with the "classical" method (including sometimes a triple br anyway, lol).

@Thefroste . We have limits in our quest for speed. while a new discovery requires skills, makes part of the game (even if it's not made for that goal^^) and is possible to be used by everyone, we're fine with it. And you know, at the begining i was playing speedlaps/time trials as a training for multiplayer races. To perfectly know all the turns, the best places to boost or br... But i finally find this mode very addictive (like zone must be when you don't suck at it like me, lol). To be or not in the top 10 rank don't really care in fact (it's anyway something you can be proud of), what's care is : "Did my lap was the fastest and the closest to perfection (my perfection, the one i can reach) as possible ?". If not, i want to try to live that even once. And it don't necessarily means a rank 1, you can have this kind of search even below the 100 rank or beyond (that's don't matter). What's matter is the feeling of achievement you can have when you succeed in a "good" lap. For example, i'm please with my lap times on sol2 reverse and the 2 chengou, because i succeed in all i would succeed on these tracks (having good lines, performing all the br, hitting all the speedpads i would, successfully sideshifting at the right place on the right moment...) even if there's no rank 1. contrarily, i'm not satisfied with my anulpha reverse lap, because i feel i can do better, i did few mistakes and missed some speedpads and sucked on few lines. On speedlap you don't fight against the clock, but against yourself. The ghosts are a good materialisation (if it can be said about a ghost, lol) of that. Even if multiplayer is my favorite mode, speedlap is (sometimes^^) less frustrating, no ramming, lag, vista pads, lack of luck on weapons pick up... and in that mode you're alone with your boost, your skills, your knowledge of the track, your imagination to find new tricks and your fu***g ghosts^^.


And for those who are anyway interested in trying the boost-select-boost, here is my first attempt in using this trick on anulpha forward where i shortly explain how to do it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MttTY3GotRk

JABBERJAW
29th May 2009, 01:20 PM
plague, that's a good word. There seems to be something stupid in every game that should not be there. Here are some plagues I like, some I don't

like:

1) big shortcuts, with skill, but not half the track

dislike:

1) going through walls: (culprits) xl/2097/wo3/wo64

2) pitch foward speeds you up all the time: (culprits) pure/pulse

3) Brake tapping for speed boosts: (culprits) xl (on pads) 2097 (anywhere). Even though I like the speed from this, I would rather have the game just be faster

4) Respawn ahead on tracks: (culprits) Fusion

5) select thing: culprit = HD

6) scraping wall for speed boost: culprit wo3. this made the game play choppier than it should have, although it is not that bad. It requires skill, but it is a stupid skill

7) sideshift: I know this is not a BUG, but this belongs in fzero. I don't think turning will ever again be turning way in advance (like with a qirex in xl), and then sliding nicely around the turn. Now it's spaz time to make sure you ship grips the turn. Out of all of the previous bugs for me, If this was removed, i would be happy to keep the rest

Spece2goin
29th May 2009, 02:10 PM
7) sideshift: I know this is not a BUG, but this belongs in fzero. I don't think turning will ever again be turning way in advance (like with a qirex in xl), and then sliding nicely around the turn. Now it's spaz time to make sure you ship grips the turn. Out of all of the previous bugs for me, If this was removed, i would be happy to keep the rest

if you see the description of slideshift in the game, it wasn't made for the purpose of turning faster, but avoiding things in an emmergency move...
but it's used by CPU ships to turn too, so it was thought that way too.

leungbok
29th May 2009, 02:45 PM
cuz i like this little batpac :bat :bat :bat and for support my batmate leungbok :bat :bat :bat
Huuh, mate don't call me "robin", please ! ;)

pirahpac
29th May 2009, 04:22 PM
(sorry for the bears ) i cant do this awesome trick found by my mate leungbok ( cuz with stick is very hard ) so im looking for other trick..other comments ? no ..just say GGGGGG leungbok http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLrOADuxIiA

OBH
29th May 2009, 05:20 PM
heated discussion going on :)

i thought id keep quiet until i tested the b-s-b trick myself, for anyone whos interestd, heres what i found ----

* i decided to do a venom speed lap, on a track i thought the b-s-b trick wouldnt help due to a winding first few corners - chenghou project.
* within 5 laps, i beat the current top lap time 31.34 with a 30.89.
* I then remembered that you can pause the game, and turn auto pilot on/off MID LAP!!
* A few tests using the b-s-b trick, pausing, turning on auto-pilot for the first corner (as im flying stupidly fast into a wall, making it near impossible to steer round the corner), then turning it off again for the remainder of the lap could have brought me a low 30sec, maybe ever 29.....

food for thought.....

leungbok
29th May 2009, 05:54 PM
oO
Very interesting find obh !
But here it can broke the game to me, where's the skills in using auto-assist for turns (not for you of course, but i imagine what can become the speedlap boards).
I just hope that a good pilot is still able to go faster than the auto-assist BS even on hard turns :?
Thx 4 sharing.

RedScar
29th May 2009, 07:38 PM
I gave up with speed laps, was thinking of getting back into it just for the shiggles but now with this whole b-s-b thing I don't even wanna try. I'm not going to use a bug to gain a better time, it should be patched out and the leader boards reset.
Bugs are not to be abused by the community; joining a server for 99% of shooting games on the market and using bugs results in an automatic kick if not ban because it is annoying and unfair to the general community. Regardless of how much "training" it takes to use the BSB, it still a bug and should not be abused.

SaturnReturn
29th May 2009, 08:06 PM
I don't think it can be called a bug. It doesn't seem like an error in the programming of the game. The select button works exactly as intended. When I realised it could be used more than once per lap I was surprised, and I can't help but think maybe this type of thing was seen coming. That said, perhaps it's more realistic to assume that the b-s-b move is an unintended use. But if it is a bug, then it's a bug in leungbok's brain, and that bug has already existed for a long time :p.

Redscar - I can't do these tricks, but I still enjoyed improving my time the old fashioned way and climbing up the rankings a bit. So I think you can still have your 'shiggles'. Unless you were aiming solely for number one on phantom anulpha pass reverse.

leungbok
29th May 2009, 09:16 PM
it should be patched out and the leader boards reset.
Why, because you don't like it ?
The only times that deserve to be reseting are the time obtained with a cheat, or with an unvoluntary glitch. If this trick is not a glitch, so i must be a cheater !!
And i also must be banned, like the users of bugs on fps, it's exactly what i understand, thank you very much for your expertise !!

@ haydn. Fortunately, it seems that pausing the game to activate the pilot-assist is still slower than without ;)
But did you improve your phantom time doing that (the pilot-assist stuff) ? Because it would be an awesome time using this, and i worry a little about that ! :?

H3avyM3tal
29th May 2009, 10:06 PM
^It may not be a cheat, but the fact that you get one boost per lap gotta mean something. With stuff like this, the leaderboards will just be a game of cat and mouse with skills ending where the bsb starts. If two people are equal skill wise without the beb trick, and then they start using this, it will just be trial and error - nothing wrong with is, but it is VERY much useless imho.

As I said, they gave us one boost per lap.

leungbok
29th May 2009, 10:21 PM
heavymetal please, read all the thread, and look at the video and you'll learn that you NEED skills to perform that trick !
Okay guys it becomes boring to me, my intention was to share with you a discover i found fun and efficient, i had not anticipated that everybody, even those that they don't do speedlaps will have so negative reactions and often without even a look at what the trick is !
Okay i surrender, you don't like my videos, i'll remove them all.

stinkleroy
29th May 2009, 10:25 PM
Leungbok....please don't remove your videos. Yes this is an exploit to the game but so are the many many shortcuts that people have found. This is no different and IMO equally awesome. This is just like anything new in Wipeout...it always causes a stir but it will die and soon everybody will be doing it. Just wait and see :D

You have my support! For what it's worth lol :)

pirahpac
29th May 2009, 11:03 PM
very weird ..why talk about a br boost with select BEFORE the start line?..if he can go more fast BEFORE the start line and do after a regular lap.where is the probleme?i think SL in all wipeout dont do boost in speed lap for boost just before no?but all people do it..i br with the first boost ( without select ) on sebenco,chengou, chengou reverse and sol reverse (my video show all that tricks) ..its a bug ? a cheat ?no its just a hard difficulty for do it and after do a good lap .. so if SL put a " select " in a patch ( with invalid lap if 2 )i think we can use this AWESOME trick BEFORE the line start ..like just the boost .;why people blame leungbok with this? i showed this video on ubermall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttdyi7WPYpU ..why no problem here with same trick? and people like redscar who say " i stop speed lap" ok try tt ..and we ll see ...( nice philosophy: i can t so its a cheat or bug so no need speed lap) :bat

H3avyM3tal
29th May 2009, 11:29 PM
Leungbok, what I said was not meant as an angry post. I just meant that speed lap has it's rules, and while this trick is not cheating or even close to it, it is not within the rules imo. I am not aaginst this, but this trick is not like shortcuts in a race - there are consequences to a faild shortcut - this trick just gives you a faster start. It is however not worth the effort I think because if speed is everything in sl, then why do we get a single boosr per lap?

It is incredible to actually find this trick and do it, and I am amazed each time from you zoners :)

leungbok
29th May 2009, 11:38 PM
As i already said many times, this trick don't give you more speed. It's can only give you enough height to do a br and that br give you speed, and it's harder than most shortcuts.

stinkleroy
29th May 2009, 11:40 PM
@ H3avyM3tal - Read the post above yours if your issue is about only one boost per lap. Pirahpac pointed out that we all use the boost from the previous lap to start the next...doesn't that then make it 2 boosts per lap? BSB is no different to a shortcut as it certainly takes skill to pull off successfully :)

SaturnReturn
29th May 2009, 11:41 PM
That's actually a good question. Why do we get a single boost per lap? Seems pretty arbitrary now that you mention it. Surely no boosts at all would make more sense? hmmm?!

Darkdrium777
29th May 2009, 11:43 PM
very weird ..why talk about a br boost with select BEFORE the start line?..if he can go more fast BEFORE the start line and do after a regular lap.where is the probleme?It's the exploitation of a feature implemented in a recent patch in a technique for which said feature was not made for. That's the problem.
If this feature had not been implemented in patch 1.30, leunbok's or your lap times would have been impossible to achieve.
Now you have used something to go faster, at the expense of the normal gameplay of the game, and this can effectively be considered an exploit.

i think SL in all wipeout dont do boost in speed lap for boost just before no?but all people do it..I have no idea what you mean here. I am assuming you are talking about Sony Liverpool not boosting before the start line to do the times they used in the game. See "Beat Zico."

i br with the first boost ( without select ) on sebenco,chengou, chengou reverse and sol reverse (my video show all that tricks) ..its a bug ? a cheat ?No, that is part of normal gameplay. You use the previous lap's turbo to perform a barrel roll at the start of the next lap, there is nothing wrong with that.

so if SL put a " select " in a patch ( with invalid lap if 2 )i think we can use this AWESOME trick BEFORE the line start ..like just the boost .;why people blame leungbok with this?Personally I am only blaming leungbok for getting "carried away" in trying to get the fastest time and in the process using a technique which I consider to be an exploit. Seeking to obtain the best time is not objectionable, but I find using this technique is, as I've already said it's using something patched in the game recently to get better times than previously achievable.

i showed this video on ubermall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttdyi7WPYpU ..why no problem here with same trick?Remember your fist video that you must have deleted by now (why?), I posted at that exact moment that I thought it was exploiting the lap override.

SaturnReturn
29th May 2009, 11:51 PM
It's interesting to see the different meanings that the word exploit can have. Especially interesting that it's a French word that seems, first and foremost, to mean achievement. But then in English it generally takes on a more negative meaning. OK, so maybe it's not all that interesting, but it sums up the whole discussion quite nicely for me. :D

stinkleroy
29th May 2009, 11:54 PM
Wow this thread is getting ridiculous. What's with all the Leungbok bashing? He was merely doing what guys like him do...try to find all possible ways to go faster...and not for just for his own gains, but to share with everyone. The fact that these technicques are shared should count for something, whether you consider it to be an exploit or not, because if you're serious enough about SL you will learn it. I personally consider shortcuts to be an exploit, thats just my own view, but that doesn't mean I don't love to watch all the crazy tricks these guys come up with.

People keep moaning about the game not having anything new....here's something new. I like to think the guys at Studio Liverpool relish in this kind of crazy stuff :)

JABBERJAW
30th May 2009, 12:35 AM
what would be nice if speed lap was just that, one lap, that is it. This would not make you do a stupid lap before you can start competing for it.

I'm not bashing anyone, and the times should be allowed. All I was stating is I don't like that technique, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't use it to compete. I really don't like brake tapping either (at least the kind on 2097 piranha), but I use it to get faster times. Yes it takes skill even on xl to hit the brake on the speed pad at the correct time, but It's kinda dumb. Instead of tricks like these, I would rather have riding the walls slow you down more, and the turning to be harder. This would separate the top 10 more. Much harder tracks as well. moa therma, are you kidding me? this is not a wipeout track. Although, with more difficult turning, and wall resistance, it would probably be ok for an early track.

yeldar2097
30th May 2009, 01:20 AM
moa therma has ruined my life. fair enough, it's a pretty easy track to get around but if you want a decent time (sl/tt) you need serious patience and serious lines (a lot's of controllers to account for inevitable rage blackouts).

i'm not having a go i just thought i'd go slightly offtopic in a no-doubt vain attempt to diffuse the situation.

that said i will give my opinion anyway: leungbok shared this 'exploit' (call it what you will) with good intentions. he could just have well have kept it to himself (and probably some other frenchies) and we'd all have been slightly confused as to how people obtained the times they do. :+ to leungbok for finding/sharing. like stinkleroy said, we're always looking for ways to become faster and expecting the aliens to provide us with tricks that will aid us in our quest. i don't know whther SL know about all of the shortcut we have found and whether they were planned from the beginning but if not then using those shortcuts seems pretty much the same to me. not to mention the fact that BSB isn't goin to magically get you into the top10 (or wherever you're aiming), i think that if you can reach your target with BSB you can probably get pretty close without it, you still need to be able to navigate the track properly. i'm not quite sure how to finish my rant because i'm quite tired at the moment and i'm well aware that most of what i've written is probably bullshit (i just read it and it turns out i'm right, it's a load of bollocks) but i feel like saying something, if only for the hell of it. well at least i've sort of found a way of finishing... here we go: THE END :hyper

leungbok
30th May 2009, 02:13 AM
Cat, Saturn, Yeldar, Pirah, thanks for support. You see that new trick with fun, as it must be :+

blackwiggle
30th May 2009, 04:27 AM
I haven't been reading this thread till today, and to be honest,I had thought of doing [trying] to do the same thing myself when the turbo reset first became available.

I just haven't been motivated enough to try it.

I don't have a problem with this, as it only adds one more difficult maneuver at the start of a lap.

Mu5
30th May 2009, 05:25 AM
Cat, Saturn, Yeldar, Pirah, thanks for support. You see that new trick with fun, as it must be :+

I support you as well matey :D :+

The buzz of Wipeout for me has always been the speed - the adrenalin rush...if people find new ways to maximise this buzz - WOW :D

Massive respect to anyone who can pull this off - As I said to do this trick at the start and then to fly a great lap is stuff of legend for me, and I have nothing but respect for leungbok and pirahpac :D

Those videos are great - please dont remove them matey :D :+

I have no problem with this at all - just like I have no problem with Asa's shortcut mastery in Wipeout 2097. I have only respect :+ :D

Mad-Ice
30th May 2009, 08:35 AM
First of all; I was scared that the discussion between Leungbok and Darkdrium would result in a big fight within the whole community. We are all different yet so much alike, we share the same passion for Wipeout. We can not agree on everything, but as long as there is respect for eachothers' opinion than it's cool!

We should always share with eachother how we can go faster and that is what Leungbok has done. That is most important! Eventhough I do not like the trick, I would use the trick. If only I had the time.

Also respect to Darkdrium who did a good job to stay cool in this heated discussion. The trick is there, it is open for everyone to use it or not!

H3avyM3tal
30th May 2009, 09:19 AM
@ H3avyM3tal - Read the post above yours if your issue is about only one boost per lap. Pirahpac pointed out that we all use the boost from the previous lap to start the next...doesn't that then make it 2 boosts per lap? BSB is no different to a shortcut as it certainly takes skill to pull off successfully :)

No, that is actually two boosts per two laps.

Eidt:
I don't do sl, because I have time to play only on weekends, and even that time I would rather spend online. I do acknowledge this trick, I just like when there are a set of rules a bit better ^^;

leungbok
30th May 2009, 09:36 AM
Thanks Mad-Ice, you're right we're all different. Fortunately !!
Everyone can have his opinion about this trick, but i didn't expected that some here will suggest that records made with it are invalid (wich just imply that i'm an unfair competitor, nothing less ! And of course some other pilots !).
So if i'm usually happy to share my find, i'll wait and see a little before giving access again to my videos. Even if i regret that you, Blackwiggle, Mu5 and few others can't see it, i just don't want atm that some people could learn and use some of the tricks i'm showing on my videos. About that, where are their videos about the "fair" tricks we can use to go faster ? Can't they share with the community something else than their criticisms ?
Otherwise mate, we miss you for the fight on the sl/tt contest, hope you, and master Asa, will find soon some time to come back and k*ck some a*s ;)

OBH
30th May 2009, 10:32 AM
@ haydn. Fortunately, it seems that pausing the game to activate the pilot-assist is still slower than without ;)
But did you improve your phantom time doing that (the pilot-assist stuff) ? Because it would be an awesome time using this, and i worry a little about that ! :?

My current Chenghou SL phantom time uses soley BSB, no autopilot. Though id be lying if i said i wasnt tempted to really have a stab at it... would be nice to try and knock icaras off another throne :) If i make any progress mate, ill be sure to let you know!!

Id also like to take the time to apologise (again) for having a winge to leungbok, wotan and pirahpac a week ago because of all this stuff, before having even attempted it myself ---- i have to be honest, its actually pretty good fun :)

AnErare
30th May 2009, 10:34 AM
It's the exploitation of a feature implemented in a recent patch in a technique for which said feature was not made for.

That is why I've called it a bug. No it does not appear to be a programming fault but an unexpected side effect. If a feature does not do what the design intended then it's something in the design that's flawed. Equals a bug.

But maybe it was intended to make this possible. We don't design the game :P

@Pirahpac, thanks for calling me a Rare Donkey in that video. I don't like you though so stop being frivolous about me :P

Darkdrium777
30th May 2009, 11:01 AM
What's with all the Leungbok bashing?BAHAHA don't make me laugh. If anything leungbok was the one who posted personal attacks.
In the interest of the community I'm ready to "forget" it, but if you seriously look at this quote and can't see the problem well there is something wrong somewhere.

Are you the official referee ? Or the supreme expert of speedlaps and how it must be played ?
[...]
You're kinda young to give me lessons, you know !
Go ahead and read me (http://www.dropfiles.net//files/1679/post.gif), find ONE place where I "bash" leungbok or attack him. Again, it doesn't exist, don't bother looking. The only thing I've said is that I think leungbok got "carried away" in his search for the fastest time, but this is not bashing. I'm just saying I think he made a mistake in using this technique, that's it, and only my opinion.
Because I post long stuff for an opposing view point doesn't mean I'm bashing, attacking, or get out your thesaurus (http://thesaurus.reference.com/) for other synonyms (http://thesaurus.reference.com/the?q=bashing&search=search).
It's disappointing to see that merely stating your opinion about a technique and it's use can have such an effect. Again, this gif (http://www.dropfiles.net//files/1679/post.gif) pretty much sums my feelings up when I read such disappointing things.

One last time:
-I personally, myself, think, believe that: the boost select boost is an exploit
-I have tried to convey my views on why it should not be used: we have lost "normal function" of the speed lap mode if we use it, we are getting faster times than previously achievable on 1.26

Objectively:
-It's in the game, so people will eventually use it until (if) it is removed
-The time is valid according to version 1.40 code.

If that is too hard to understand... Well stop posting about this matter.

leungbok
30th May 2009, 11:45 AM
I wasn't targeting you Darkdrium, you already share at least a ubermall reverse TT video. That's sufficient for me ! Don't become as paranoïd as i me ! ;)

JABBERJAW
30th May 2009, 12:19 PM
I didn't see darkdrium attack anyone, only defend his opinion. Nor did I attack anyone. I never said they were invalid, just that I do not like it at all, and then stated my reasons that I do not like it. I am just happy that it doesn't exist in time trial, or multiplayer.

Here is a question though:

1) IF you could hit start, pause the game in mid air, barrel roll while paused, then have it work when you unpaused, would you use that technique?

2) What is your opinion in pulse about taping the analog stick foward

3) What is your opinion of using a custom controller? Keep in mind, there are many styles of controllers out there

4) What is your opinion on a ps3 sanctioned controller that has macros on it, meaning the push of a button gives you a barrel roll?

pirahpac
30th May 2009, 12:24 PM
@Pirahpac, thanks for calling me a Rare Donkey in that video. I don't like you though so stop being frivolous about me :P

lol dont worry im a donkey too ( but not rare me :mad: ) and i love u too :bat

Darkdrium777
30th May 2009, 01:11 PM
Here is a question thoughA question? :D

1) Err... that's an odd question really. I don't really have an answer. Currently in WipEout HD that would mean there would be a glitch in the pause menu, and therefore no I would not be using it. But it it was programmed in, documented in the controls, then it's part of the normal gameplay and yes. But there's yet to be a game that comes out with that glitch or programmed feature.

2) You know it. I don't like it either. Use human hands, human skills.

3) It's the man who controls the ship, not the controller (joins my idea about jaytech, where it would be the controller controlling pitch down in that case)

4) Again, no go. It's enabling "lazy mode", barrel roll is left right left or right left right, not one button. Do it yourself or don't do it. Having the controller do it is imo not an option. It's like turbo controllers really, that debate has been going on since the dawn of time. And AFAIK turbos are considered cheats in other games...

SaturnReturn
30th May 2009, 01:18 PM
I'm not sure if pause can be considered part of normal gameplay. After all, you are pausing the game. The clue's in the name people.

Mad-Ice
30th May 2009, 01:34 PM
Thanks Mad-Ice, you're right we're all different. Fortunately !!
Everyone can have his opinion about this trick, but i didn't expected that some here will suggest that records made with it are invalid (wich just imply that i'm an unfair competitor, nothing less ! And of course some other pilots !).
So if i'm usually happy to share my find, i'll wait and see a little before giving access again to my videos. Even if i regret that you, Blackwiggle, Mu5 and few others can't see it, i just don't want atm that some people could learn and use some of the tricks i'm showing on my videos. About that, where are their videos about the "fair" tricks we can use to go faster ? Can't they share with the community something else than their criticisms ?
Otherwise mate, we miss you for the fight on the sl/tt contest, hope you, and master Asa, will find soon some time to come back and k*ck some a*s ;)

As long as you are telling people what you are doing and how you are doing it, people will have an opinion about that! You know you are not a cheater, so forget about this! You are an honest person and you should keep on sharing your ideas, strategies and videos. Do not change this mate! Keep on being positive.

Ohh, I am seeing it! Just like you; I like the search of fastest ways, so in the end I will use it, eventhough I don't like this possibility. I am seeing it from both sides and I can understand both sides too.

Yes, I miss myself too in the crazy fight in SL/TT! My life has changed so much since I became a dad and I just can't find the time to play Wipeout HD enough to keep up with you guys. But taking good care of my son is more important.

Greetz Mad-Ice

Darkdrium777
30th May 2009, 01:35 PM
There are a few games where "pause" is part of the gameplay. I know of Oblivion (Elder's Scroll). When you pause the game, you can take up to five potions to buff yourself, then resume play. And you can also take these potions without pausing. Obviously pausing therefore has the advantage...
There surely are other games where in pause menu you can affect gameplay. ;)

Spece2goin
30th May 2009, 01:46 PM
Final Fantasy XII
in "pause" (in fact it's triangle bue nevermind) menu, you can change characters who fight, during a fight, whenever you want and then use his ability, the character taht you remove from the battlefield has just not to be attacked.
there are glitches, unsing this ability to make monsters disapear. Therefor, that's not because i can make monsters disapear to pass a zone without fighting that i will do it.

Lets back to Jabberjaw post, i think a single button to make a barrel roll enables you to make barel rolls so easyly that you can make one just when you leave the ground, and not the little time after that is required to push 3 buttons
that sounds really bad, and that would be used online too
IMO, it would go with jaytech and taping the stick...

SaturnReturn
30th May 2009, 01:48 PM
Point taken, but I still feel that the Oblivion example is outside of gameplay, whereas something like the b-s-b thing is fully incorporated into it, because it's added to all the normal stuff, e.g. pitching steering etc. It's another example for me of why the difficulty involved does matter. All the things JABBERJAW mentions take skill out of the game, so are things I wouldn't use.

JJPAP
30th May 2009, 02:31 PM
Tried the BSB-trick on Ubermall Forward (for me, the most obvious track to try it out, as I´m definately no BR-Wizard).
All speedclasses: New PB´s - and by quite a lot - because of the BSB.
Do I like it being a part of the game: NO.
Do I have to use it to be competetive: YES.
Just to make it clear: I think Leungbok shows an enormous amount of fairness by showing us the trick - thanks, man ;)

To satisfy all, WO might needs to have more differentiated record-tables.
Just a few examples:
Multiplayer:
1. As now
2. For Weapons Off-races
3. Races w/ BR´s off
4. 10, 15 and 20 lap record-tables
SL + TT:
1. As now
2. Time trials w/o BR´s or Boost
Etcetera ...

All would have their own personal and preferred playground to compete in :P

leungbok
30th May 2009, 02:56 PM
4) What is your opinion on a ps3 sanctioned controller that has macros on it, meaning the push of a button gives you a barrel roll?

In that case, i'd prefer to see the br removed from the game (and you know that i love br ;)).
The bonus boost must be a reward, obtained because you have the ability of doing the finger combo (this combo is not that, hard ;) if we compare with the crazy sequences required for some fighting game like SF with half circle with joystick and and several buttons to hit, or the "stars" combos of tobal 2 with a surhuman timing needed, lol).




1) IF you could hit start, pause the game in mid air, barrel roll while paused, then have it work when you unpaused, would you use that technique?


No, never. I like all the tricks that requires skills, it's an achievement to master a game as difficult and fantastic than wipeout, i personaly don't want it become a total casual game. Ok for autoassist and some of other stuff but no more, please :lol

Because of the kind words of Mad-Ice i will make my videos public again :)(and also because it's too much work to give access at each friend on all the videos, lol).
This guy rules :+

JABBERJAW
30th May 2009, 03:03 PM
butwould you call it cheating? since it is a sanctioned controller, and it is a button on the controller? you can see where I'm gonig with this :)

Just food for thought, and why some people don't like it

leungbok
30th May 2009, 03:05 PM
No, not cheating ! just no interest for me (it's a personal taste:P) i'll not blame anyone to use it if it unfortunately happens. ;)

SaturnReturn
30th May 2009, 03:34 PM
"ps3 sanctioned controller"? What does that mean? I think I can see where you're trying to go with this, but I think using examples plucked out of fantasy is a bad way to make a point. If you consider this a parallel with the b-s-b then it seems like you're still missing a large part of the argument.

Let's just say it did exist. I think it would be cheating if someone used this and not everyone else had it. The difference between some and others would no longer solely be based on skill. If there were to be a controller that made the game considerably easier for those who purchased it, then I don't think it would ever be officially sanctioned, unless someone made a very poor decision. You'd essentially be changing the programming of the game for some, but not for others. There'd be no level playing field any longer.

TheFrostE
30th May 2009, 03:46 PM
i dont mind whether people use it or not, i hav e no problems with it at all i just choose not to use it...and i have listened to LB and gave it a shot yesterday and tried it...its very difficult to do, and i wonder why my select button doesn't work alll the time when i try to cancel O_O.

i wanted to say that before i say what im going to say next in hopes that you guys who enjoy it wont flame me for no reason. but i think i would change the definition of "the trick" just to "an exploit". Its basically using a feature in the game in that mode as it was un-intended for to gain an advantage in your times....(not against other people). because as you said, everyone CAN do it so theres no unfair advantage, you just need to practice it ALOT.

that said i decided to give it up trying to use the exploit and went to anulpha forward with icaras and manage a 20:72 lap time with only boost over the start line and BRs. was very happy with the time even though i know i can improve on it.

SaturnReturn
30th May 2009, 04:01 PM
I think calling it an exploit is very fair. This is what I called it at first. But people should realise that the word has both positive and negative associations.

AG-wolf
30th May 2009, 04:06 PM
I think a majority of the people complaining about it are people who can't do it themselves. By no means does this make the game broken... it's not along the severity of snaking or shift boosting in F-Zero GX, or the TDD/DTD/etc and nose-grinding crap of F-Zero X (see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCXwaL3-ApQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIpZBz_cOfY ),
so I don't think it's fair to ostracize people who can do it. I think it falls along the same lines as a lot of the speed shortcut techniques in sonic games- take sonic 2 for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUFA4Xn4oFo
every jump he does when coming off the downward arc of one of those hills pushes him forward faster. You can also gain mad speed if you enter a loop when you're not already going wicked fast... on a left-approach loop, if you jump from about 10 o'clock to 8 or 7 o'clock, and hold the "down" button when you land, you rocket out of the loop exit... boom, free speed.

I'd look at this barrel roll/select/boost bullsh*t like this:
It's a unique scenario which can only be recreated/executed in one single mode of the game, a mode which focuses solely on getting the fastest single LAP time.
You're not cutting out 15 seconds of a track by skipping miles of it like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdU6hZ6bxN8 <-yeah, BROKEN as F**K. (Video has good music, though. It's Dr. Stewart's theme)
You're utilizing a game-mechanic that is already accepted (barrel-rolls) to gain a portion of the speed...
And you're using a turbo to launch yourself in the air, enabling a BR... I don't think anyone will argue with that, as I'm sure we've all done it on the start/finish approach in UberMall FWD.

This just happens to add another variable in the mix, a second boost, which doesn't give you a higher top-speed but it allows you to not only take the speed from the prior lap's turbo power up, but get a free barrel-roll boost as well. I'm sure everyone here was already using the prior lap's turbo right before they crossed the start/finish line, so I can't see how anyone can really complain so much.



i wonder why my select button doesn't work alll the time when i try to cancel O_O.I've noticed just through general gameplay that pressing "Select" doesn't recharge your turbo if you're in the middle of a boost already like a dash plate, BR-boost, or turbo boost... there's almost a sort of cooldown time, it works if you press it right after the boost you're in the middle of comes to an end.

JABBERJAW
30th May 2009, 06:26 PM
My only point is that some people are going to like it, and others are not. Noone is ostrasizing anybody. Just a discussion of when does something become cheating/ or using an bug in the game too much. At what point does something become a cheat. The controller thing here in pulse for example. Everyone can tape up the controller? yes? So everyone can do it. Keep in mind, I like the ban on records with the tape because of the way I hold the controller.


My answers to the questions:

1) start button to perform a BR while paused. I would call this cheating, and at the very least complete bullsht

2) Custom controller: Not cheating, as long as there are no macros on the controller. There are already tons of different styles of controllers out there that have their unique advanteages/disadvantages. We all know if a negcon like controller becomes available, Records will fall, but not by the amount of the older games, where analog was far better than digital tapping

3) Controller with a macro: CHEATING in my book, but would have to be allowed I think on a site like wipeout hd. NOt here of course.

4) taping analog stick: I wouldn't consider this cheating, but do not enter times with this because of the zone rules. I can play with my thumb holding up the analog stick anyway.

5) playing pulse/pure at 333: Entering times I would consider it cheating, because of the rules rob put in place. I wish everyone had the ability to put it at 333. The game is about 100% better running like that. Especially pure, I think it runs at a faster framerATE THAN HD

4) select glitch: not cheating, just wished it was removed from the game

SaturnReturn
30th May 2009, 08:01 PM
Fair enough. It thought you were heading towards saying the b-s-b thing counting as cheating. My mistake. :|

AG-wolf
30th May 2009, 08:30 PM
1) start button to perform a BR while paused. I would call this cheating, and at the very least complete bullshtWait, you can perform a BR while paused? lol THAT's ridiculous :P


4) select glitch: not cheating, just wished it was removed from the gameThis isn't a "glitch," so I don't think it can really be criticized... I like the fact that they implemented a turbo-reset option so I don't have to take one or two EXTRA laps to re-do a failed attempt.

Spece2goin
30th May 2009, 10:39 PM
AG-Wolf, do you know Tool Assisted Speedrun?
http://www.dailymotion.com/user/RealMyope/video/x7ctt9_88-miles-a-lheure-episode-9-sonic-2_videogames 20s record Xplosed!
(in french sorry)

it's a manner to finish games as fast as possible, but using a computer, an emulator, a frame per frame programmable play, save whenever you want (look at re-record count), have access to RAM to see variable values etc...
it far from one can do with his hands, and with the 1button barrel roll, i think the topic slowly slip to this...

AG-wolf
30th May 2009, 10:45 PM
I'm familiar with tool-assisted speed runs, but PiccoloCube is to F-Zero as Al Sartwell/JABBERJAW is to Wipeout... his videos are actually him playing. The ability to do TAS recordings in WOHD isn't possible yet, to my knowledge.

leungbok
31st May 2009, 12:10 PM
Ok, guys, i found a new trick as fast as the b-s-b that i hope will be considered more fair ;)
I call that the NDU-boost for nose down-up boost, lol. The trick is to nose down and after up and to boost. If you do it well, you should be able to perform a br like with the b-s-b. It works with my settings, pad+pitch motion at 100%. I don't know with the stick. It's not easier than the b-s-b (and less fun on my opinion^^) but i only use here the normal gameplay, no ? :P
Maybe another debate will start, lol. Anyway you'll be able to take part again on the competition Redscar ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWl8tAdQI5A

Oh, i made the attempt at rapier speed but it works on phantom too ^^

yeldar2097
31st May 2009, 12:28 PM
:hyper
nuff said
:+ leungbok

LOUDandPROUD
31st May 2009, 12:45 PM
Now THAT I have zero problem with...awesome discovery! Thank you, leungbok! :+

TheFrostE
31st May 2009, 12:47 PM
THAT is a trick...the other was simply an exploit...nice technique :+

OBH
31st May 2009, 01:46 PM
thats just the bog standard method for gaining air on straights anyway isnt it?

no taking away from your quick time there though mate :)

leungbok
31st May 2009, 01:51 PM
Not exactly the bog standard method (it's new for me at least). Because if you just nose up and boost you'll not be able to have enough height to perform a br. But nose down first helps to have a better nose up. :)

SaturnReturn
31st May 2009, 02:23 PM
Nicely done leungbok. Although, quite why youtube recommends related videos such as "A Brief History of the Birth of the Federal Trade Commission" and "How the States Got Their Shapes" is completely beyond me :blarg.

JABBERJAW
31st May 2009, 02:27 PM
That's pretty good. I like it. Have you been using this. I watched one of your videos, and it seems that you get air far better than I do off small bumps. Are you pitching down on the uphill side, then uping at the last second to get more height? You made the ship look floaty like xl for a bit in those videos. I think I do this by just how I'm racing on sebenco and chenchou, but I saw you getting air all over the place without barrel rolls.

also, This down up with the boost. this gives you air even on a flat section? Sorry I don't have time to test it out right now. kids.

leungbok
31st May 2009, 03:25 PM
@Jabberjaw. I don't think it's possible to have enough air on a totally flat section, but it can works with very lightly bumpy straights as the start of tracks.

kanar
31st May 2009, 03:31 PM
Pierre Belmondo would be proud of you mate. Fantastic Find!

OBH
31st May 2009, 06:22 PM
@Jabberjaw. I don't think it's possible to have enough air on a totally flat section, but it can works with very lightly bumpy straights as the start of tracks.

if you can get air before the start of metropia id love to see it :) cos i sure cant.

leungbok
31st May 2009, 06:45 PM
I'll try to record that soon ;)

H3avyM3tal
31st May 2009, 07:03 PM
You are crazy. To be able to find such tricks is amazing. I am truly at a loss of words here. I am so glad I found out about this place :D

leungbok, my deepest honors goes to you with this one! You are a master of tricks. SL should include a stunt mode in this game I say!!! I respect you for what you tried to show with the bsb trick, I don't agree with it, but I respect and understand it. But this is the way to go man! Find new tricks, and with your pace we are going to hear about something new every week :)

A true pilot!

@haydn - I think it is possible to get air in each track right before the finish line - they all have boost pads right?

Edit:
Nose up and down, and very soon leungbok will have a pimpin' craft :D

RedScar
31st May 2009, 09:19 PM
Why, because you don't like it ?
The only times that deserve to be reseting are the time obtained with a cheat, or with an unvoluntary glitch. If this trick is not a glitch, so i must be a cheater !!
And i also must be banned, like the users of bugs on fps, it's exactly what i understand, thank you very much for your expertise !!
! :?

Sheesh Dark is right with the attacks, your response slanders every part of mine and all you say back is what I interpret (it may or may not be, text is purely subject to the reader) as sarcasm. Not the best way to win people over if you ask me, I support Dark's view of logically presenting an argument more..

No, they should be reset to pre-BSB because any times obtained with BSB are using a glitch/exploit. Regardless how hard it is to pull off it does not make it fair or even in anyway, shape, or form. It is as I bolded above, an "unvoluntary glitch".

I make the comparison to FPS games and the use of glitches not to say you are a cheater, but to show that the use of them is highly frowned apron and considered unfair. I know most of the user possible glitches in both Rainbow Six Vegas 1 and 2 from experiment in private servers with friends. I do not use them in real matches though, because it

A) Detracts from the intended game play thought out by the developers.
B) Give me an unfair advantage, some even to the point of making me impossible to kill.
C) Generally results in rage quits from a game with an already small community (PC version).

I guess my post is a bit of an attack on you as a cheater, but that was not my intention. There is no doubt that you are an amazing wiper who is dedicated to the series.

Finding glitches like this is very common thanks to the less time developer has to play test game. I consider anyone who finds, reports and helps fix a glitch a good player. However, using them in ranked play to gain an advantage, I (and what I'd like to hope most FPS players) consider cheating. Racing games are different from FPS since its more based on time rather then another human opponent directly (for time trail and speed laps at least), so you aren't directly detracting from another's gaming experience. This may make them a bit more open to argument on the issue at stake here. However the idea that I have to use this to compete and do well in SL makes me not want to play SL so it does detract from the experience.



Ok, guys, i found a new trick as fast as the b-s-b that i hope will be considered more fair ;)
I call that the NDU-boost for nose down-up boost, lol. The trick is to nose down and after up and to boost. If you do it well, you should be able to perform a br like with the b-s-b. It works with my settings, pad+pitch motion at 100%. I don't know with the stick. It's not easier than the b-s-b (and less fun on my opinion^^) but i only use here the normal gameplay, no ? :P
Maybe another debate will start, lol. Anyway you'll be able to take part again on the competition Redscar ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWl8tAdQI5A

Oh, i made the attempt at rapier speed but it works on phantom too ^^

lol :P
This I have no problem with, it is fair and uses all the mechanics that were originally put in the game. Looks like I'm going to have to practice this one. That said I prefer flash SL so I don't know if I will get a chance to use it.

Sry for the delay in response, I don't check these forums as often as I should.

Darkdrium777
31st May 2009, 09:37 PM
:hyper
nuff said
:+ leungbokI agree, problem solved. Anything and everything I said doesn't apply to this.
Great find :+

leungbok
31st May 2009, 10:06 PM
lol :P
This I have no problem with, it is fair and uses all the mechanics that were originally put in the game. Looks like I'm going to have to practice this one. That said I prefer flash SL so I don't know if I will get a chance to use it..

It works on all speedclass (on anulpha reverse at least) :cowboy

AnErare
31st May 2009, 10:34 PM
Oeh nifty! And it can be used in online racing as well ;D

Spece2goin
1st June 2009, 12:28 AM
would you be urged to find that trick if no one complained about the b-s-b one?:D

just kidding...

but here you have the same result, and all our approval!
good job!

blackwiggle
1st June 2009, 02:54 AM
I remember using a similar sort of move on Colin McRae rally to get air over bumps.
Jab on the brakes,then accelerate.

lunar
1st June 2009, 09:45 PM
I guess also for those of us who don`t think barrel rolls are a welcome part of wipeout the BSB trick is a nail in the coffin for us. We have to admit that.

Anyway I have tried to do the BSB trick now. It seems the hardest thing about it is that my select button does not respond like a normal button. It`s not responsive enough to be relied upon on any of my 3 controllers. Considering that "select to cancel" was put in as a convenience feature, presumably to allow players to attempt a fastest lap on every lap, it has actually ended up as an inconvenience feature in which we will often have much less opportunity to go for fast laps, due to the crapness of the select button for the task in hand and as a consequence of the fact that even the most practiced pilot can`t pull BSB off perfectly every time. Seems to me it has had the opposite effect of what was intended and therefore SL would want to pull it from the game. But that is only my slightly biased take on it. :paperbag :)

eLhabib
1st June 2009, 09:47 PM
Very good point.
Agree-o-meter at 100%

Colin Berry
1st June 2009, 10:35 PM
Select to cancel a lap and give you an extra boost was put in because, when doing speed lap people would usually save their boost and use it right at the end of a lap, so they were flying super fast over the line, a 'rolling turbo start' effectively getting two boosts on one lap, but you could only do this, every other lap.
It was debated a lot, several suggestions were talked about and the select to invalidate ended up being chosen

so it was added for convenience, most folk going for the super fast times, knew to use two boosts on one lap, is that an exploit, no of course not, so it went in to aid that

boost, start new lap whilst boosting, fire boost, on for record time... hit wall... frustration as you do another lap and half before you can get an attempt in...

Basically it is a "damn i've ****ed this lap now i need to start next lap flying" button

So thats the 'why'


As for this boost select boost thing

I need to understand it better (I've read all the posts in this thread but its late and I'm tired)

Is it

Boost... Barrel Roll... (Select) ... Boost (in air).... Cross Line ?

If so then, well it wasnt intended for that, does that make it an exploit... I guess some would say yes, I'd say its absolutely ingenious and I applaud the time effort and skill to get it, does that mean I like it.... I'm unsure at the moment really

I'll point this thread out to the designers on HD so they can mull it over (though they have probably seen it) things like this I dont personally think are 'cheats' or 'exploits' sure they arent designed to work this way, but its not breaking any of the games 'rules' not in the way flying through buildings for short cuts in the past have been. its simply using things at your disposal.
I dont know, its not black and white, it needs consideration.

RedScar
1st June 2009, 10:43 PM
Its
A) Boost (with nose up)
B) Cancel
C) Second Boost
D) Cross Line (while in air)
E) BR

The first and second boost make plenty of air to obtain a BR, and the BR is done after you cross the line and get the boost for the lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhcvU8VPjm4

Spece2goin
1st June 2009, 10:48 PM
now we have an official view on the point.

i fact it was (yes it was) boost-select-boost to catch enough Air to make a Barrel Roll while crossing the line.

the point we discussed was that it needs to press select to have 2 boosts.

Now, Leungbok find an ingenious way to obtain the required airtime in only 1 boost.
it's nose down then up and boost. that allowed him to make the barrel roll right after crossing the line, and i think now every one aggree that this is T3H skilled trick to do!

congrats to him.

RedScar
1st June 2009, 11:03 PM
The NDB is A LOT harder, only been able to pull it off once so far.

SaturnReturn
1st June 2009, 11:12 PM
Really? I never get even close with the bsb, but can at least get a bit of air and half a barrel roll with the nose down thing. Weird!

Colin Berry
1st June 2009, 11:32 PM
I gave an official explanation but beyond that, its just my thoughts, and its not my baby anymore :D

RedScar
1st June 2009, 11:40 PM
Well we will see if SL gives the ok for it or not I guess. Thx for being awesome Colin

leungbok
2nd June 2009, 06:45 AM
Thanks for your interest, Colin !! :)
And yes, Pirahpac is very ingenious ;)

blackwiggle
2nd June 2009, 07:54 AM
He certainly knows how to get his monies worth out of a game,that's for sure.:D

I'm both looking forward & dreading at the same time what you two will get up to on the new tracks ,especially now you have 2 more weapons in your arsenal to get amazing times.:eek

leungbok
2nd June 2009, 10:07 AM
Yes Blackwiggle, trying to add new tricks on the actual strategies of those pulse/pure tracks will be very interesting and fun :D
For the devs, here some links to see what the b-s-b trick looks like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhcvU8VPjm4&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRm65n4E-Js&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTbxoul8OwQ&feature=channel

lunar
2nd June 2009, 11:26 AM
Many thanks for passing it on to the team, Colin. I hope they will somehow disallow the technique on the new pack, even if clearing it from records on existing tracks is not possible. Whatever they decide, at least a decision will be made and we will all have to live with it :)

leungbok
2nd June 2009, 12:14 PM
To remove it completely from the game is useless. It's sufficient to increase the time of recovering a boost when you already used the select option. In fact you press select, you have a boost, and from this point if you use the new boost you have to wait 2/3 seconds to recover a new one by pressing select.
I'm really please with this option which allows to make each lap a good lap and everyone here too, no ? ;)
And if SL don't fix anything, no problem for me :lol
They already have more important things to fix, like vista pads, glitched rankings, and main accounts wich can't connect online ;)

lunar
2nd June 2009, 12:22 PM
Good point I`m sure there are other ways to deal with it than getting rid of the select to cancel option completely. Personally I`d rank it as just as important as some other issues, but yes they are going to be busy! :D It would be good to know something about the glitched rankings too and whether this will ever be fixed.

pirahpac
2nd June 2009, 02:39 PM
Thanks for your interest, Colin !! :)
And yes, Pirahpac is very ingenious ;)

thks mate! but u too :eek really: this trick on flat road on ap rev is :eek:eek and thks colin for look this interesting thread !

Darkdrium777
2nd June 2009, 04:23 PM
My idea is to put some kind of square volume around the track and code it so that when you are inside this volume, the select option does not work anymore. And of course place that volume on the start grid.
;)

SaturnReturn
2nd June 2009, 06:25 PM
Yeah, and then they can put magstrips everywhere so there's never another fun aerial trick to do ever again. Better yet, we could put one of those round things on every corner and just roll along the track...we'll call them.....cars. This is going to be so awesome :rock

Nah, I'm obviously kidding. We all know cars suck by comparison (except maybe Kigo - he seems to like them for some reason), and HD does seem to offer a lot of aerial freedom compared to some WipEout games. But I think less restrictions generally equals more fun, so I hope there's little change on that side of things.

I'd like to see the select button work better in general though. It really just doesn't do it's job half the time, e.g. I don't seem to be able to do it at all while on the anulpha overpass. I don't think it's my controller as it's the same in that area every time. As soon as I drop off, it works. It seems to be the same in other places too, but I haven't payed enough attention to remember where.

Overall I think the feature should be left in. It does seem of benefit to speed lap as it generally makes it less of a pain in the arse. Whether they should come up with a way to prevent the b-s-b exploit I'm not personally sure. When the DLC arrives, I doubt anyone will be too bothered either way.

guillaume
3rd June 2009, 10:19 AM
I'd be for keeping this new (and welcome) addition, and at the same time getting rid of the B-S-B trick. Mind you, I just want to be a pain in the arse, because I'll never have time to get competitive on Speed Laps :p ;).
As to your implementation idea, DD777, it seems that having to modify the game resources (as in opposite to just the game code) might be too much hassle. Just my two cents though, I don't have any better idea. But I'm sure the programmers at Studio Liverpool will, if they consider this needs fixing!