Petition against Elimination Respawning

[eLhabib]

Apparently, when you get eliminated in wipEout HD multiplayer, you respawn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rshy-yrzjh0&fmt=18). Yes, it is ****. And no, we don't want it, do we?
Anyone who thinks this should be removed per game update, you know what to do (sign this petition...).
signed
eLhabib

[mdhay]

You have my support, fellow Martin of the world.:+

[Rubix42]

I' m tossing my hat in the other side of the ring. In a MP match online, if you are going to stay connected until the race finishes, than you should be able to respawn.

If they take out respawning, it should automatically drop me back into last place and disconnect me from the match, but that would be a nightmarish netcode to write. No respawns would kill the online community to have people sitting doing nothing because they got bounced out. Especially if it happened right away at the start of a race. Give a penalty for letting someone get blown up, and let them continue playing I say.

Plus, it gives you opportunity's for revenge:banzai

[Rapier Racer]

I didn't want to jump the gun here so long as you can turn it off. Some clarification would be nice.

Generally speaking though this is a bullshit 'feature' now the online community has been split up before it even exists because theres no way I'm joining some random game where the moron hoster has re-spawn enabled. And if by some unlikely sheer act of mass stupidity it can't be turned off....

This looks to detract from the game experience and point of the game why bother replenishing your shields when you know you'll just re-spawn? Theres a difference between making Wipeout accessible and taking it too far this is the latter.

Support from me.

[stin]

Same here from me!

stevie

[lunar]

You don`t even lose much time when you respawn, it seems :blarg I support my fellow Stephens, and the Martins. When you`re dead, you`re dead. Death should be more than just a minor inconvenience.

Otherwise where is the fear of low shields? And if that`s gone so has half the excitement.

Maybe it can be turned off though? In which case we can just not use it.

[Wip3ou7]

The time it consumes being blown up (presumably) would equal you losing a race against pilots who are doing perfect laps and such. Trust me, I think you guys are probably blowing this out of proportion. You die and respawn = lots and lots of time lost. I really doubt the game is gonna throw you back in first or second place.

[JABBERJAW]

I actually have always wanted that, BUT it should be a excruciating 5 second + penalty before you respawn. Mainly I would like this with multiplayer, but the penalty should be severe. EL, how long exactly is that respawn?

[Colin Berry]

Whats that mr Wip3ou7 you think people might be jumping the gun and over reacting on something before trying it and getting all worked up. Well I never !!

Actually on this issue, I will tell you EXACTLY what happened

The original design was 'dead is dead' no respawn, however, the online team (who have a far greater experience in online gaming experience than I do) argued respawns were a far better option for more players and indeed implemented respawns by default.

Ergo I argued, the best option was... well.. .to make it an option. Thing is about multiplayer, the test time is enormous. Bug recreating and fixing is a lengthy process, if you think you know how long it might be, think again, double what you thought and add some.

When push came to shove we defaulted to respawns on, the code was more solid and it was quicker to test. Respawns off takes longer to test, because you have to cater for extar little things, like the host being eliminated and quitting the game, which is different to them quitting when the game is active and they arent dead, due to the games state machine, etc. In short, respawns off takes longer and it throws up horrible bugs.

Thats not to say we shouldnt ever do it, but we decided on the safer option for launch. We knew it wouldnt be popular with everyone, but we had to make a call and in the first few weeks when lots of new players are hopefully playing, we felt this would be a less frustrating feature than dying and not getting respawned.
So due to the ease of implementation and the appeal to newer players we went with respawns on. Having it as an option for launch, wasnt an option.

Does that mean respawns off wont appear, no. We (the remaining team of which I am not part but I say 'we') are working on implementing several little features to add to the game via updates. Respawns On/Off as a host option I *think* is one of them, though I couldnt swear to it right now.

But really, you have to realise that decisions are not made blindly, and have a little faith. Calling such things '****' and 'a bullshit feature' and 'stupidity' without understanding the reasoning or indeed fully experiencing the feature... well, I'd consider that far more ill-thought out behaviour.. (not to mention some of the other comments elsewhere, really calling someone a ****ing idiot hardly a way to pursuade them to make a change.. hrm ?)

There are many things we want to add to the game and alter and tweak, we dont sit there and say, you know what lets do this cos its daft has no reason and will really ****ing annoy people.... things are actually thought through and decisions made for all manner of reasons.
If everything goes according to the current plan of the team, the game will receive updates (separately to DLC, which is content / data based, I mean tweaks and minor additions) and there will be things added that expand the multiplayer experience. Some small, some hopefully large Indeed I get to spend my weekend helping to design one thing for a game I am no longer involved with whilst others get to work late implementing extra things for a game already released because they care. Not bad for some guys who put in '****' things, 'bullshit features' and make decisions of 'mass stupidity'.

So have a little faith, it beats tearing hair out in despair

[Rubix42]

Wow, I feel pretty smart, that almost what I said, only way more official and educated.

Neat. Looks like the game I'm programming in my free time is teaching me something.

[Nadia Elenova]

"I you set respawn on, they will come"
-The Holy Book of Online Gaming- :P

I don't have a lot of experience with online games, only MGSO, and I hate modes with no respawning when you have to wait 5 minutes each time you die to play again. Never thought wipeout could have a respawning option, but I don't see it as a threat that could ruin de online experience. Anyway, to be able to switch it off will be welcome too.

[lunar]

Thanks for the explanation, Colin. I do hope they can patch it, and that at least the time lost through being eliminated is enough that it doesn`t change the gameplay too much. The absorb/use weapon decisions you had to make were a great thing in Pure and that`s what I would fear losing, mostly. But thanks for taking the time to explain the process.

[Fascia]

Unfortunate but not a big deal, it appears that eliminations are alot more often than in Pure or Pulse anyway.

[Rapier Racer]

Well it was done for Pulse, it seemed to be able handle the situations you describe when someone quits and dies then quits. I'm confused, is the PS3 that much harder to code for that death is death was so hard to do?

I'm not retracting anything till I've played it and been convinced otherwise, how does it not remove a load of strategy and thrill? Your not going to get that heart thumping sensation when the HUD starts screaming at you telling you your about to die and you have someone behind you that could potentially finish you off at any second because you know, oh well I'll be brought back to life, who cares...

If that video is accurate it looks like 4 seconds from death to respawn, hardly enough punishment.

Hope these possible updates become a reality for the not too distant future.

[Rubix42]

I dunno, 4 seconds is an eternity on Phantom if you ask me. Against skilled pilots you could easily go from first to last place. Are you telling me that you wouldn't be sweaty palming it if you had to fight your way back to number 1?.

But then again, I'm a bit of a scrub, I would probably be in last place against anyone on this board. It took me forever to get golds against the Hard AI in pulse.

[RJ O'Connell]

Just to clarify, is respawning off by default in split-screen?

I am signing, but at this rate I might end up getting a PS3 + WOHD after the update arrives.

[Darkdrium777]

Martin, I agree. My first reaction to that video was the same as yours. Delay the game more so you can write the code, but don't do some thing like that which doesn't belong in WipEout but in FPS games.

And in case you doubt my sincerity Colin, I really mean it.

Anything else like this :turd we can know before we buy the game? You had my money when this was WipEout. Now I have doubts again because it has some FPS features in it. Great job. :-

-Signed: Darkdrium777

[eLhabib]

Colin, thank you very much for giving us an insight to this issue. I understand that this decision wasn't made out of thin air, and I sincerely apologize for calling whoever it may concern a ****ing idiot. It was a hot-headed reaction, and lacking the insight you just gave. I take it back and appreciate the work you are putting into making the respawning optional in the near future. No hard feelings, ey?

[Frances_Penfold]

I don't see this as a big deal so long as the respawn time is significant, which it more or less seems to be. I count 4-5 seconds. Hopefully that is a constant amount of time across speed classes because 4-5 seconds is much more significant game-play wise at Phantom speeds than at Flash speeds.

People are such shits in online games-- personally I think that anything that keeps players from dropping out is a good thing :)


Respawns off takes longer to test, because you have to cater for extar little things, like the host being eliminated and quitting the game, which is different to them quitting when the game is active and they arent dead, due to the games state machine, etc. In short, respawns off takes longer and it throws up horrible bugs.

Interesting, hadn't thought about that issue.



Anything else like this :turd we can know before we buy the game? You had my money when this was WipEout. Now I have doubts again because it has some FPS features in it. Great job. :-

:rolleyes:

For ****'s sake, they are only trying to make the game better and more friendly to newcomers.

[Colin Berry]

I worked with Foxxy for 5yrs+ believe me I have a thick hide, it takes a lot to offend and cause hard feelings :D

I think what happens when people care about something, in this case a game (but in can be a film, star wars trilogy for example), and they have a high anticipation for it, perhaps through previews, a long wait, etc, then often what can happen is people build up high expectations based on previous games and what they like and want, as such, new things can often seem scarey and unwanted, with Wipeout its a scarey territory

- omg barrel rolls
- omg no pit-lanes
- omg every weapon gives energy back when absorbed
- pilot assist oh no !
- respawns in multiplayer
etc

Sometimes the reality proves to turn out ok, I'm not sure many people miss pit-lanes (I know some do, uhm... tough :D ) something which was a staple for a few iterations and an omission that raised some concern pre Pure.
Sometimes people embrace things they didnt think they would like, and sometimes they dont like them no matter.

I just think people have to give things a chance, and then decide. I can tell you this issue was discussed quite heatedly amongst the team. I was completely against the idea of respawns, but you cant have a closed mind like that when working on something. As it turns out after playing it / trying it, I was pursuaded to change my mind (as were one or two others) and I think it works well and I can see the benefits.
The option would be nice, hell yeah, and I *think* it will come, but I cant confirm that (I'm not going to say 100% incase tomorrow someone decides no never and I get lynched !)

And I do think raising issues and passing comment on features, on forums such as this is useful. No dev team is ever going to listen 100% to its hardcore fanbase it would be development suicide (not to mention impractical as things often divide people). Thats not to say we dont listen and dont take some things on board and consider them, but its always easier to take things on board when people make a reasoned comment over an emotive one :)

I mean, if you make your girlfriend a cup of tea and she says 'euck its horrible, I'm not even taking one sip, its just horrible it is disgusting thats just the worst tea ever the person who made it must be an idiot, its the shittest cup of tea ever'

Are you going to go make her another cup of tea... ?


>>>>>>>
As for the idea of delaying a game 5 days before release over a subjective opinion ....
wow
I dont doubt the sincerity, but what colour is the sky in that world ?

>>>>>>>

Its out in 5 days, I suspect itmight pay to hold back the real GAAAAH for when folk realise that the Beat Zico trophy is really quite hard..

[Wip3ou7]

Hah thanks for the nod Colin. Sometimes these people are way too defensive, but it *is* because of how much we love it.

On a side note, what about those PSN Gamer Icons, Colin??

[eLhabib]

Its out in 5 days, I suspect itmight pay to hold back the real GAAAAH for when folk realise that the Beat Zico trophy is really quite hard..

:D I realised that one!

[Darkdrium777]

>>>>>>>
As for the idea of delaying a game 5 days before release over a subjective opinion ....
wow
I dont doubt the sincerity, but what colour is the sky in that world ?
>>>>>>>Ok, you think that because I learned about the respawn today a few hours ago that I want you to delay the game again five days before launch.
What I meant to say is that you should have kept working on the game to make respawns at least an option; if eradicating it completely was out of question, before announcing the release and getting around finishing the whole build. That way the game wouldn't be coming out in five days, I don't know when, but it would then not be such a controversial matter. And we would have the option (Just like BRs, it's the same thing, options always make for better stuff in the end, even though it takes longer to implement them)
But thank you for presuming I was crazy or daydreaming, when in fact I am originally French and even though I write appropriate English there is still the difficulty of translating what I mean. :frown:

[Colin Berry]

The thing is, the game was already delayed, we can not just keep going on and on adding things prior to initial launch (thanks to the beauty of PSN and updates we can add things later on though)
There are deadlines and costs. If we were given as much time as we desired, we would stop due to being sick of it, not due to it being done, there is always something else you can add or alter.

We are not given as much time as we desire (very few dev teams for any companies around the world are, I can probably think of 4 or 5 afforded that) With the much documented delays in the summer we had the opportunity to do some things, but not others, not all staff were allowed to stay on the project as other work needed doing, changes and additions are prioritised according to time and staff.

I am sorry for presuming you crazy (albeit in a jovial fashion) but given the tone of your initial post you can hardly take offense I mean you call a feature of something you havent played, ****, and say it doesnt belong in wipeout but in FPS games.
You cant try and shoot someone in the head, then complain if they throw a stone at you

But I didnt mean to upset you or anyone else, I just try to give a few explanations into things when I can, hopefully with a hint of humour

[Norfolk'n'Clue]

...or maybe folk have trouble understanding British sense of humour. I know some people can get confused when I'm in the pub with friends, they could be forgiven for thinking that we can't stand each other given the amount of piss taking and sheer abuse :P

[Darkdrium777]

But I didnt mean to upset you or anyone else, I just try to give a few explanations into things when I can, hopefully with a hint of humourYes well is there anything else? The respawn feature has me pretty disappointed, can you say something else about other new features like that? Maybe there are some good ones we can know, or is it find out in five days? :lol
I see what you mean though with the offense stuff, maybe the use of the icon was inappropriate, something like 'this kind of things' would have suited better, but I really don't like respawn and I'm sure you know that when there is something you dislike you tend to get more expressive. I'm sure it was well implemented (There is a big time penalty, and you don't respawn with full shields after all), but it's just the surprise of finding out about this and the fact that it's totally new (Just like you said with BRs when Pure released a couple years back I'm sure it was the same thing) and just five days before release... I didn't want to insult anyone as well, it's just that it's displeasing, as I said before.

[Flashback Jack]

There are many things we want to add to the game and alter and tweak..

Just to let you know Colin, I for the most part am satisfied with your games as they are. Pulse was damn near perfect (for me); I pretty much have next to no complaints. Each iteration had its own personality -- desirable for the most part, but there's nothing throughout the series I would rate as a complete turnoff (except for the single race bug that obliterated my 500+ hour Pulse profile complete with at least a few world records I may never touch again).

One suggestion however for HD. If you haven't already, balance the single player and online experience for heavier, slower accelerating ships by making them slightly less prone to recoil caused by mines, bombs and missiles (perhaps walls too). I'm Ag-sys loyal, but I want to see my Piranha and Triakis compatriots happy in the long run.

While you're there, can you fill us in on the sound sets for each ship in HD? Do they each sound different from one another this time as I suspect from the various videos I've seen?

- F

[RJ O'Connell]

Or a noticable difference in top speeds between, say, FEISAR and Icaras so that it actually means something?

but we're off topic...

I can tolerate it while its around, certainly having lag-free online is a huge step up from Pulse in terms of the advance of online play. I can't wait until I can actually get a PS3. :/

[rushin]

tbh i think it makes sense to have respawns on 8 player multiplayer.

you have to think of the fun everyone is going to get out of a game, making ppl sit there for 5 - 10 mins while the other 7 people complete the race is not fun for anyone. Having to quit out and spend however long it takes going to lobby, finding new game is not fun if it can be avoided.

For splitscreen multiplayer and as an option for serious matches its great, but for the vast majority of ppl who are going to play online respawning is a good feature.

Isnt it about time we all said woohoo!! 5 days, and had happy thoughts not mad ones?

[Lance]

when in fact I am originally French

And here I was thinking that you were Québécois. :)

[mdhay]

4 seconds

Why not make it 3 days, so everyone can feel like jesus?

[lunar]

Change of team names perhaps: Icarus to Lazarus? :paperbag

I think there was always going to be an initial storm over this, and I agree with many of the anti-points and the fear of losing the panic and tension that RR described so well. At first it does sound a bit like Halo-racing, but I think we`ve explained enough why a patch would be appreciated. On the other hand I also see the point that for the (hopefully many) new players it will have an appeal, and that I should try before I cry about it. If you`re mano a mano with another guy for the race on the last lap, and you blow up, it will still be a chilling experience and you`ll have lost the win, but you`ll still get some tournament points. Tournament dynamics might change a bit - no more last race assassination/survival battles between the two players who could win. It could make the focus more on the racing than killing in tournaments, but we`ll have to see how it plays. I was kind of looking forward to taking on the role of official photographer after being eliminated, as that role suits my skills quite well! But I think I`ll get over it and won`t let respawning spoil my fun next Thursday onwards. :)

[eLhabib]

+1 Stephen


Why not make it 3 days, so everyone can feel like jesus?
Haha! :D

[infoxicated]

There should be a Beat Zico trophy in Superstardust HD - I cant get anywhere near him in that! ;)

[Axel]

Well the fact that you guys are thinking about adding the option shows that the decision was made responsibly. Lets be serious guys, this game has to do well and if we want to see DLC, we need the masses to keep on playing the game. New options added over time will be great, but first and foremost is to attract the new gamers.

We will always be playing no matter what, hence the decision to leave the option for a later update. It really comes down to order or importance. We need this game to do well so we can all benefit. I wanna be playing this game in a years time still seeing loads of people online.

Give the Dev's time to sort things out, coding aint easy :). Oh and hurry up Colin with the update if you guys decided to do this :)

[Darkdrium777]

And here I was thinking that you were Québécois. :)

Well I am but I speak French. Ugh, see: another example of who confused the translation is :blarg

[Rubix42]

Just a thought, but most everyone's knee jerk reaction to this has been to say that it will destroy the tension of when the alarms and klaxons start going off and you're about to wipeout.

What hasn't been mentioned yet by anyone is that by diminishing that, you add a new layer of tension to the fact that you just took someone out, and they are now behind you with a bone to pick.

Plus, the first time someone gets picked off, respawns and comes back to get first, I think you might change your mind about how horrible your victory was;)

[Asayyeah]

Stephen : " Icarus to Lazarus? "
:lol
That is simply Brilliant ! i dunno if it's me who is connected to your english humour or you who have some french humouristic roots !

Colin : Due to his cheap price HD will target mass-ps3-owners and of course many new pilots will be introduced to the franchise. I am not against default respawn online : that sounds logical to get attracted to online as many racers as possible and balancing the frustration to be eliminated by a WZ wipeout-fan so they can stay online and improve their skill gradually.
Of course a patch would be absolutely perfect to let us set up a non- respawn online match after a while.

I don't know about Sony's policies related to DL contents : i really hope they release the packs not so close in between them, 4-6 weeks would be reasonable to have time to learn them and also to keep the fanbase happy with new tracks/modes coming constantly.

Looking forward to get my hands on your baby, Colin ( ermm you know what i mean :p )

I am organizing a French Wipeout HD convention this coming weekend in Le Havre, we will be 7 with 2 ps3 and 2 lcd tvs (split screen héhé ;) ), if you want to say a quick 'bonjour' through ps3 chat that would be awesome :)

[cybrpnk]

signed...

cybrpnk

[Medusa]

Petition signed. I'm really hoping that a switch-off option is added for this.



new things can often seem scarey and unwanted, with Wipeout its a scarey territory

- omg barrel rolls
- omg no pit-lanes
- omg every weapon gives energy back when absorbed
- pilot assist oh no !
- respawns in multiplayer

Firstly, "omg barrel rolls" - they're scary and unwanted because they change the very nature of the wipeout series from following racing line to following bounce lines, and suddenly making ship bounce a good thing instead of adding to the race time - not because they're new!

Secondly, "No pit lanes" is not new. Wipeout 1 did not have pitlanes, so this is a return to purity. Yay.

Thirdly, everyone here knows that if you don't have pitlanes and you're going to have shield energy loss (eliminations) in the game, there has to be a way of getting energy. Does anyone even care about absorb?

Fourth, for a very long time "pilot assist" was called autopilot and only lasted for a couple of seconds, so obviously when someone is given the option to race all the time with a partial autopilot feature in a racing game, there's gonna be backlash. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying.

Fifth, respawns in multiplayer? ROFL! How nice is that? A superstressful race and you've finally eliminated someone, and gotten into the lead, when the respawned ship sends a quake which eliminates you. And you lose because of someone who came back after being "eliminated". It's going to happen.
I'm glad to read that part of the reason for having respawns in was to prevent crashes and bugs, because that's a reason people can live with.

Thanks for the explanations, Colin. Please remember when you read, that there are good reasons behind the rabid posts made here. It's just hard to see the reasons sometimes, and besides we all have big heads and mouths to match. XD

[eLhabib]

Thanks, you've expressed exactly how I feel about the issue.

[phl0w]

One of the most thrilling experiences in a Wipeout tournament has always been going in the last race of a tournament being second overall and HAVING to win that last race while the person in first MUST NOT get points, not even 1. So it was a matter of eliminating him while at the same time finishing first. This happens only so many times, for sure, but it's the "what could happen" kind of situations in a game paired with reactions and options available for the player to deal with those situations that make a good game. With the advent of respawns one major option in Wipeout's gameplay is missing.

[Colin Berry]

@ Medusa, I was just giving examples of how people can go OH NO, when they hear something new without even trying it, and how they can be wrong. I wasnt getting into the specific of each (some folk like some changes, some dont, so be it) just pointing out that usually people hear 'new thing, thats different' and get closed towards the idea simply because it is different, it is a change, often people worry for no reason, because once they see the change, they realise its not actually a bad thing.

Of course there are some changes that are hit and miss and divide people, Barrel Rolls is one, some folk dislike them, some like them. Ultimately in that case who does the team listen to ? Fan A or Fan B ? The answer is simple: Neither. The team has to go with what it believes is right, and they know they wont ever please everyone, they just have to go with what they believe works best, and now and again the team disagree and then its down to the few to make the judgement call for what they believe is best for the game and that might mean going against what they personally want in some cases.
Because no matter how noble it might be to say, **** the masses, lets make a game for the hardcore fans, that philosophy will put you out of a job, and thats not even considering how divided the hardcore can be.

But on respawns in multiplayer...
As I said elsewhere, when people on the online team said they wanted respawn in, I was totally against it, far more than anyone has been here, far more swearing and stamping of feet, and you know, I hadnt even seen it in action or tried it.
And the first few races I was far from convinced that we needed it, but the more we played with it, the more I appreciated it.

So whilst it might seem like a bad thing now, I've no doubt it will actually turn out to be a good thing for some poeple who might be wary. Yes there will be some who cant accept it I guess they have to cross their fingers for an add-on making it optional, but certainly for launch given it was one or the other, I am confident the right decision was made. I guess in a few days people will get to try it for themselves, and get rabid again :D

[Lance]

And rapid, too, we hope. :)

[eLhabib]

... Barrel Rolls is one, some folk dislike them, some like them. Ultimately in that case who does the team listen to ? Fan A or Fan B ? The answer is simple: Neither. ...

I don't mean to be a wisecrack here, but in the case of Barrel Rolls the answer is easier to find than you might think:

Does everyone hate BRs? NO. Ok, but would the people who like BRs actually care if BRs were gone? NO. Would that decision make the BR-haters happy? YES.

Here's your answer ;)

[Flashback Jack]

My core Wipeout experience began with Pure (aside from a brief stint with WO64), so I'd probably be among the complainers if barrel rolls were ever removed from the game. I need all my speed, man. :banzai

- F

[Nadia Elenova]

Forgive my heresy, but I was born in 2097 and I'll still miss BR if they're removed. :P

[Colin Berry]

I
Does everyone hate BRs? NO. Ok, but would the people who like BRs actually care if BRs were gone? NO. Would that decision make the BR-haters happy? YES.

Here's your answer ;)

aaaah but thats just your opinion, it is not actual fact :)

You cannot take the views of a few of the hardcore (less than 80 votes on the barrel roll thread someone posted) and extrapolate it and make the assumption it is what everyone wants or that people who said they liked them wouldnt miss them
There are plenty of people involved with the game who really like the barrel roll feature and are against removing it, and plenty of people who play the game but dont necessarily post here who like it as a feature.
You assume the people who like them wouldnt care if they were gone, but you only assume that because that agrees with what you want :D

That said, personally, I wouldnt miss Barrel Rolls too much if they went (although it would feel odd playing pulse and pure tracks without) but I know the majority of the dev team would have argued against removing them from HD.

[RJ O'Connell]

But that's because HD is pretty well attached to Pure and Pulse. How did we end up discussing barrel rolls again? XD

having "infinite lives" would certainly aid a lot of the veterans in achieving those Elimination-related trophies, no?

[infoxicated]

Well put, Col.

Online polls are mostly pointless because they consist of the vocal minority - the hardcore fans who don't count when developers are selling a game to the mass market.

The only way to really vote is buying or not buying.

[eLhabib]

Of course, you are right, Colin. I was being slightly idealistic there... ;)
Anyway, if there was an option to disable BRs for online races in HD, everyone would be happy I guess.

[HydrogLox]

As to Barrel Rolls - I mainly use them to break the back of some of the nastier time trials to compensate for some lack of pilot skill. So removing them could turn some of the time-trial tracks into ultimate game breakers for me.


Apparently, when you get eliminated in wipEout HD multiplayer, you respawn Yes, it is ****. And no, we don't want it, do we?

It is abundantly clear that this design doesn't meet with your expectations or previous experiences. This is less of a surprise if you take into account that in Eliminator mode (at least in Pulse, haven't tried in in Wip3Out 3 ***) single-player respawning happens without much of a penalty. In on-line multi-player this behaviour could be even more important for other non-technical reasons.

Who likes playing "musical chairs" ("Reise nach Jerusalem")? Those who always win. However the fact is that those who are "out" the quickest are actually the ones who need the most practice however they aren't going to get any quicker by "sitting on the bench" and eventually they will stop participating. So in fact this may be a good decision for keeping Wipeout HD more accessible to a larger potential audience/community where pilots of a broader skill range can "mingle" in the same race. Sure, it can be satisfying to casually cruise over the finish line in the first position after half of the roster has been "eliminated" - then again a skilled pilot may very well appreciate that a full roster on the track may make the race more interesting while less experienced pilots still have something to do (provided they have enough integrity to stick around in 8th place).

If you want to remove the respawn after elimination then maybe leaving the track should become reason for total elimination?

Granted Wipeout is a combat-racer. But at its core it is a primarily a racing game that uses combat to broaden the racing experience. That is why there is no single weapon that can deplete a craft's integrity in one single hit. The primary effect of receiving a hit is that you are slowed down. Mines and bombs are used to make passing you more difficult; Quake, Missiles, Rockets, Pulse and Cannon are used to create opportunities for passing those who are in front of you. The depletion of craft integrity requires decisions as to whether to absorb the current pickup (or even to choose a pickup instead of an accelerator pad) in order to avoid further slowdown by elimination. Most eliminations are dumb luck - you happened do deliver the eliminating blow. If you want to eliminate a certain pilot you have to deliver multiple hits - in order to do that you have to stay with that craft until it is eliminated. The target craft can prolong this process by seeking and absorbing pickups - in which case the net effect is that the target craft is slowed down. Multiple hits on the target craft will ultimately create the opportunity for the shooter craft to improve it's position - if you forgo this opportunity you are no longer playing a racing game ...

I'm not saying that you are right or wrong - but I can certainly see how "they" arrived at this particular design decision.

(*** My introduction to AG racing was through Quantum Redshift, then Pure, then Pulse - haven't had extensive exposure to Wipeout or Wipeout 3)

[Egg]

Excellent post. You work for Studio Liverpool, and I claim my £5.

[eLhabib]

Very wise words, indeed. I absolutely agree. It's always a different view from the top ;)


... That is why there is no single weapon that can deplete a craft's integrity in one single hit. ...

Oh, you haven't met the new and improved Plasma Bolt yet :twisted not 100% kill, but damn close, let me tell you that!

[Lance]

Excellent post. You work for Studio Liverpool, and I claim my £5.

If we can work for Studio Liverpool whilst being in North America, as HydrogLox currently is, can I apply? ;)

[Colin Berry]

@ Rob, damn its been so long since I saw you I cant detect if its sarcasm or not... when you say 'well put'

But you are right, at the end of the day the only votes that count to Sony are (to use a GCSE economics term) dollar votes.
Its rare for a game to have a large enough hardcore market to tailor itself for them, especially with rising dev costs etc hell you know how it works.



@ Elhabib... a Barrel Roll option you say, what an 'odd' thought...

That said... I get it in the neck sometimes for suggesting options, as there is an argument, the game should be crafted and left as is, rather than full of options. Some folk think options are a sign of the developer not making up their mind, as opposed to a developer putting the choice in the hand of the player.
Ever heard the phrase damned if you do... damned if you dont :D



@ Hydroglox, ... well put and far too detached and eloquent* to be someone from the team!

:P



* $10 word of the day ! Eat that Mr Foxx !

[DawnFireDragoon]

That said... I get it in the neck sometimes for suggesting options, as there is an argument, the game should be crafted and left as is, rather than full of options. Some folk think options are a sign of the developer not making up their mind, as opposed to a developer putting the choice in the hand of the player.
Ever heard the phrase damned if you do... damned if you dont :D




i think options please everyone and are hugely important to games and there success, i get that something should be crafted, but as a player and a buyer i appreciate been able to take a product and 'craft' it to my personal preferences. such as simple things like in an FPS, the option to invert one's controls. in wipeout the choice of in cockpit/out cock pit. the new HUD's you guys added for the fans! re-assigning a button to something more familiar/comfortable.

options imo never make me think a developer is unsure, they make me appreciate the choice and enjoy the game more!

[Chill]

Payers can learn to become a neusence for fun if they wanted... if they're not skilled, they could sit dead in the middle of the track and just cause people to hit into them, or drive reverse... get eliminated, respawn and continue... I don't want this neusence, as well as if they just choose a speed they obviously can't handle, then they're just in the way of slowing down a good race... the permanent eliminations weeds this kind of thing out.

If the players are to need practice, they are to get it in the game before going online!! If they can't handle speed, they are to go to a slower speed online!! Online wasn't built for learning, that's what the game was built for. Online was built for experienced players who are in the need for more competition!! Thus respawn should not exist for that, and the sense of acheivement of the eliminator...

BRs should not exist as they're simply unbelievable... replace it with a large intake that occurs somewhere around the craft that could not occur at the regular elevation of the craft... or bring back pit lanes and energy drain for speed... I never had a problem with that...

[HydrogLox]

You work for Studio Liverpool, and I claim my £5.
I should be so lucky ... (... I guess).
However if that is also meant as a compliment I'll take it.
Compared to some of the design decisions I've seen in some legacy systems that one was crystal clear.
Though it is interesting to note that there is some kind of open wager at SL for the detection of covert SL WipeoutZone members.


*sigh* why do people want Wipeout to be 'more realistic' it's almost getting annoying having to read that over and over..
Exactly. Wipeout is a fantasy/futuristic racer that creates it's own reality - however it needs to be consistent in its own ways. If you can accept that you magically appear back on the track after hurdling off of it then you should be able to accept "delayed replacement" after elimination. The original Wipeout design was single-player centric so there will be some aspects (Wipeout realities) have to give because they aren't optimal in the multi-player arena.


Oh, you haven't met the new and improved Plasma Bolt yet :twisted not 100% kill, but damn close, let me tell you that!
The Plasma Bolt can be deadly - however it is more like an area weapon to simultaneously deal damage to multiple craft in a cluster. If you try to use it as a point weapon against a single craft you have to aim and time it, taking concentration away from your racing. So in most cases it is simply wiser to absorb it unless you have a tempting cluster of competitors in front of you that is fairly easy to hit even if you shoot "from the hip".


well put and far too detached and eloquent to be someone from the team!
:lol


options imo never make me think a developer is unsure, they make me appreciate the choice and enjoy the game more!
The options that you have described so far mainly deal with slight variations of the human "interface" to the engine. Those options take some effort but can be fairly easily accommodated. Other options that lie more deeply in the engine are far more difficult to accommodate. Allowing some options will blur the "vision" behind the product while others will require increased flexibility on account of the engine. While "flexibility" is often viewed as a positive aspect, it always increases complexity which increases opportunities for defects and testing effort which can ultimately kill a product. Having a crystal clear vision requiring less flexibility increases the likelihood of product success. I think that is what Colin is alluding to. Being download-able, Wipeout HD can always be changed as long as the cash keeps flowing, however too many "options" can ultimately limit the paths that Wipeout HD and it's DLC can take.


Players can learn to become a nuisance for fun if they wanted ... Online wasn't built for learning, that's what the game was built for. Online was built for experienced players who are in the need for more competition!!
That's why I have never indulged in any on-line gaming (so far). Because "playing with strangers" can be an uneven experience which is a waste of time. I'd guess the most successful on-line gaming sessions are between "friends". In order to meet these "friends" go to a a suitable on-line board like the WipeoutZone and behave and conduct "yourself" in a reasonable and responsible manner - you'll probably meet some people who are fun to race with. "Friends" may share a common interest but their level of skill can still vary - they all deserve to have fun in the same race.
;)

[Rubix42]

I get that people don't want respawns, but think of it this way.

Wipeout HD has respawns, which means more newer owners of the game decide to stick around and get better, because they can continue to play online without spending a ton of time on the sideline.

Which means that the game has a larger online community.

Which means that Sony greenlights another DLC pack or maybe a whole new Wipeout game because it is making them money.

Which means we have a new Wipeout game coming out thanks to all those scrubs who think respawns are a necessary part of online gaming.

Seriously, there is a reason all the most successful online games stay successful. They give players rewards for developing skill, and make the game fun to play while that skill is developing. The whole idea of "this game is really hard, deal with it" no longer works. Ninja Gaiden 2 while loved by the hardcore, is not as successful as other action games, because it adopts this attitude. It's sales suffer big time.

[Chill]

Or just the option later... so all the "skilled" players have nothing to complain about... and it would be viewable in the lobby what respawn races were on and what were off...

You can't count flying off the circuit the same respawn as being eliminated... their was always a drone available to catch you throughout the entire series if not to respawn, which made realistic sense...

[ZenDJiNN]

Payers can learn to become a neusence for fun if they wanted... if they're not skilled, they could sit dead in the middle of the track and just cause people to hit into them, or drive reverse... get eliminated, respawn and continue... I don't want this neusence, as well as if they just choose a speed they obviously can't handle, then they're just in the way of slowing down a good race... the permanent eliminations weeds this kind of thing out.


Isn't this one of the reasons for "Locked" (PW Protected) races? So that only the people "You" trust (Such as Zoners etc) get to race with you? It's a part of Pulse online, so i'm assuming it'll be in HD as well, and it's a good option. :)

[Chill]

Oh really?? That's a lot better... :) Didn't know about that...

[eLhabib]

There's no Password protection, but you can assign up to 7 friend slots.


... Seriously, there is a reason all the most successful online games stay successful. They give players rewards for developing skill, and make the game fun to play while that skill is developing. The whole idea of "this game is really hard, deal with it" no longer works. Ninja Gaiden 2 while loved by the hardcore, is not as successful as other action games, because it adopts this attitude. It's sales suffer big time.

Ninja Gaiden 2 failed due to overpowered weaponry and a horrible camera, NOT because it's unforgivingly hard.

[Amon]

That said... I get it in the neck sometimes for suggesting options, as there is an argument, the game should be crafted and left as is, rather than full of options. Some folk think options are a sign of the developer not making up their mind, as opposed to a developer putting the choice in the hand of the player.
Ever heard the phrase damned if you do... damned if you dont


To me it depends if we're talking of a new IP or of a situation like wipeout, a series that exists from lots of time.

In the first scenario, i can think that the developer has to give a clear "direction" to the game. Then giving lots of options it could be a wrong idea.

In the "wipeout scenario", if you go for the "not giving options" way, you have to choose what kind of customer you're going after. The diehards ? The guys who came aboard with the psp's wipeouts ? The casuals ?

I think it's easy to see that if you don't give options, you're going to piss off someone.

So, maybe in our situation, it would be wiser to give the change to let the customer choose what kind of experience wants from Wipeout HD.

[HydrogLox]

You can't count flying off the circuit the same respawn as being eliminated... there was always a drone available to catch you throughout the entire series if not to respawn, which made realistic sense...
There you go with that "realistic" word again. :) Wipeout is fantasy racer with a futuristic look and feel - it has no obligation to be "realistic". Sensible within it's own framework maybe ...

So you have no trouble in accepting that while you speed down the track that there is a drone around that can hurdle you back onto track without much delay? Where are these drones? Are there hundreds of drones lining the sides of the track? Is there one single drone that services all the craft? Probably not. Lets assume that each craft has its own drone. Now you are assuming that it takes your utmost skill to control a craft that is flying down the track with blinding speed, yet your support drone has no trouble keeping up with you. Maybe it is flying above you so it isn't sensitive to the difficulties of the track. So why can't there be another support drone that carries another hull which is capable catching your ejected cockpit module which it then attaches to the new hull in a matter of seconds? Once that support drone is expended it is relieved by another loaded drone of the same type. Problem rationalized - time to get back to the game ...

Oddly enough nobody seems to have suggested removing eliminations in multi-player. You could increase the penalty of having your craft integrity reduced to 0% be coming to a dead stop. However that would mean no explosions and more importantly being stuck at low integrity (and low speed if you keep hitting the wall) which could be an annoying experience.


So, maybe in our situation, it would be wiser to give the change to let the customer choose what kind of experience wants from Wipeout HD.
Some options are no big deal and if they make some people happy, then great. Many options are more hassle than they are worth. All your options have to interact in a well defined manner. Often simply choosing one over others will lead to a product that is more stable (and that is available earlier). If that means that you lose 2 out of 10 sales then so be it - once the cash of the sales comes in you can always reassess whether it is worth going after the missed sales - as long as you don't mess with the experience of your customers who have already purchased the product (and remember that in SCE's world hopefully the majority of Wipeout HD customers will have little or no previous Wipeout experience - they simply get drawn in by the eye candy. The pre-existing Wipeout hobbyist base is too small to support the commercial Wipeout HD venture).

Furthermore you have to make allowances for the differences in the single-player and multi-player mode. In the original single-player Wipeout You are the center of the universe - so it is all about entertaining you. When you get eliminated you shouldn't be forced sit out the remainder of race just so that the AI craft can find their positions in the race - you know that you didn't finish - time to start over and try again immediately. And when an AI craft is eliminated you get the bonus reward of having one less headache to deal with - which increases your satisfaction and enjoyment.

In multi-player the stakes change - you are no longer the center of the universe - all human players want to be equally entertained - otherwise they will go elsewhere. Just like you didn't want to wait for the AI craft to finish "their" race, many human players don't want wait (again and again) for the more skilled players to finish their race either - they too are in this game for racing. So the most sensible solution is to get them back into the race after experiencing a suitable (but not devastating) delay to reprimand them for their sloppiness. Wipeout doesn't have to be "realistic" - it is supposed to be entertaining. "Realistic" races are primarily audience oriented - that is why racing sponsors finance the teams and events because they want their brand to be seen and to be associated with the winning team. Racing simulations simulate this environment. Wipeout always has been player oriented - so decisions should always be guided by which outcome will please the most (not all) players.

It basically comes down to "choose your options wisely".

A: I hate barrel rolls!
Z: OK, lets take out barrel rolls.
B: Slow down, barrel rolls are a great "desperate move" feature. It's about taking the risk of reduced craft integrity and reduced guidance stability to gain some precious speed when you desperately need a turbo pickup but you can't find one!
Z: OK, lets put in a "no barrel rolls " option.
Y: Wait a minute, we already specified the medal targets for the track time trials - and some of the gold medal targets require that you use barrel rolls!
Z: Well, maybe make the option available only for multi-player.
A: Didn't you hear? "I hate barrel rolls!" I don't want to be forced to use them - even in single player.
Z: Well, can we allow extra time so that you can get the medals without barrel rolls?
Y: Sure. However, that means that the tracks with barrel roll opportunities will be way too easy for the barrel rolling crowd - the play testers will complain that barrel rolls make those time trials pointless.
Z: I guess we better drop barrel rolls.
B: But now you are making the game harder for the neophyte player. Barrel rolls are a great way to get ahead of AI craft because they don't seem to use them. Some people will lose interest way too quickly without barrel rolls!
Z: So what I'm hearing is that some people hate barrel rolls while others "just adore them". So a configurable option would keep everybody happy right?
A: Yep.
B: Sure.
Y: What about the time trials?
Z: Looks like we now need two sets of medal targets for time trials. "barrel roll" targets and "no barrel roll" targets.
Y: Well, I guess you better significantly increase the play testing allocation for the verification of the time trial targets as there are now twice as many to verify.
Z: "They" are not going to like this, unless we can find something else we can drop ... good thing we haven't announced a release date yet.

[Amon]

(and remember that in SCE's world hopefully the majority of Wipeout HD customers will have little or no previous Wipeout experience - they simply get drawn in by the eye candy. The pre-existing Wipeout hobbyist base is too small to support the commercial Wipeout HD venture).

If i remember well Wipeout Pure sold 1 million copies. If i'm right it would be interesting to know what are the numbers SCEE is expecting from HD.

But apart from that, if i understand well what i quoted, you're saying SCE has no interest at all in all the wipeout fans. All your points in your response sound like this " when we have to choose if we want to please someone who has never bought a wipeout, ora someone who bought many, we go for the first option".

I understand that if you want to dramatically extend your userbase, than it's the way to go.

But understand that being a long time wipeout player, i'm pissed of by this.

At least i'm a Metal Gear nut too, Kojima at least knows the meaning of "fan service".

[mclarensmps]

At least i'm a Metal Gear nut too, Kojima at least knows the meaning of "fan service".

You realize that Wipeout's hardcore fanbase is probably in the thousands, whereas Metal Gear's fanbase is in the millions right?

Kojima can afford to "listen" to his fanbase because they are a huge percentage of the people that will be guaranteed to buy the game again.

SL Cannot afford such a liberty with such a small fanbase, it is not economically viable for them. When you run your own business, you will understand. They don't pull decisions like this out of their ass, it comes from experience, and more importantly, failure.


-----------


Yeah... I'm back from hibernation :P

[Flashback Jack]

Yeah... I'm back from hibernation :P

Dude! Where the heck have you been?

- F

[Amon]

You realize that Wipeout's hardcore fanbase is probably in the thousands, whereas Metal Gear's fanbase is in the millions right?

Kojima can afford to "listen" to his fanbase because they are a huge percentage of the people that will be guaranteed to buy the game again.

SL Cannot afford such a liberty with such a small fanbase, it is not economically viable for them. When you run your own business, you will understand. They don't pull decisions like this out of their ass, it comes from experience, and more importantly, failure.

Did you read my post ? Speaking of businness we're saying the same thing.

I've said that i'm pissed off not by their decisions from a businness point of view, but from MY point of view, being a long time fan.

Speaking of userbase, from what i know Wipeout Pure sold a million, link:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/interview-ps3s-digital-distribution-future

"Wipeout Pure has been a tremendous success in many respects. The title has now sold over 1 Million units on UMD. But just as impressive, it has generated over 500,000 downloaded files, in the form of tracks, ships, skins etc."

Unluckily, i've found no numbers about old wipeouts.

[mclarensmps]

Speaking of userbase, from what i know Wipeout Pure sold a million, link:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/interview-ps3s-digital-distribution-future


I did read your post, I also understand your disappointment, however, the reality of things is that a small hardcore fanbase is not enough to justify these things.

Also, sales =/= hardcore fanbase.

How many of those people still play Wipeout? How many of those people traded in those games for something else? How many of those played it a couple of times and then let their UMD sit there and collect dust afterwards?

The thing is that the hardcore fanbase will amalgamate in places like this, or similar, and voice their opinion on matters regarding the game. This sampling of the fanbase for wipeout is absolutely nothing, in terms of dollar value, compared to a series like Metal Gear.

[Amon]

How many of those people still play Wipeout? How many of those people traded in those games for something else? How many of those played it a couple of times and then let their UMD sit there and collect dust afterwards?.

but this is true for ALL games, not only for wipeout pure. And a million is not a huge success, but it's far from failure. it's a good userbase as i see it.


The thing is that the hardcore fanbase will amalgamate in places like this, or similar, and voice their opinion on matters regarding the game. This sampling of the fanbase for wipeout is absolutely nothing, in terms of dollar value, compared to a series like Metal Gear.

As i said i have numbers only for pure and nothing else. But there must be some reason if the wipeout brand is going on no ? It's no mario, of course, but it's something that started more than ten years ago.

There must be a reason no ?

[Colin Berry]

Yes Wipeout Pure sold over 1million

That doesnt mean the core fanbase is 1million though

I wish it was :D

I'm not at liberty to give out the sales figures for the other Wipeout titles (if people dig on the net they can get ball park I suspect) but lets just say Pure was a HUGE success compared to any other in the series in terms of numbers sold.

The previous biggest seller for the series incidentally was Fusion (unless you count 3 and SE as one thing in which case it runs it close / possibly tips it)




Oh and Metal Gear ?
Kojima should just go make movies.. :)
(resists uber flame comment)

[Lance]

From what I read about Metal Gear Solid 4, yeah, probably so.

[Note: this is purely speculative opinion on my part, based upon nO experience of the game itself, and should hence be regarded as mere ignorant verbal ejection.]
[That is all. Thank you for reading.] :g

[mdhay]

What did you hear bout mgs4, Lance?

[Lance]

Too much FMV at times when there should have been gameplay.

[HydrogLox]

If i remember well Wipeout Pure sold 1 million copies.
That may be true however there are currently way more PSPs out there than there are PS3s.
Now a good number of PS3 owners will own a PSP but not all of them like Wipeout. I suspect that the PS3 owning (or buying) Wipeout enthusiast customer base is too small to make Wipeout HD successful by simply appealing to the fans.

Have a look at Wikipedia: List of best-selling video games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#PlayStation_3)
Pure is on the list but Pulse isn't. Meanwhile there are three different "Monster Hunter" titles on that list. It is difficult to find Pulse sales figures so it is unclear if Pure generated a lot of follow-up purchases.
Now look at the PS3 list. "Ratchet and Clank: Tools of Destruction" sold 1 Million units over the last year. But four of its PS2 predecessors sold 2-3 million units each.
Now Wipeout HD has a distinct price advantage but it is also limited to the PSN customer base. So for Wipeout HDs sake I hope that it's customer base isn't limited to satisfied Pure owners who want more of the same. Wipeout HD has to appeal to PS3 owners in general.


But understand that being a long time wipeout player, i'm pissed of by this.
I can certainly empathize. However it is often necessary to make game-play alterations in an attempt to appeal to a larger audience in order to perpetuate the franchise even if it alienates a few people. Of course these changes can backfire in a big way. That's what makes some of these decisions so difficult for the creators and designers.


But there must be some reason if the wipeout brand is going on no?
Curly Monsters had a go at it with Quantum Redshift (2002) on the XBox. It was a fun AG racing game but it didn't find much of an audience so the second one with on-line play was never realized. During the PS2 reign there was only one Wipeout (2002) title (which is viewed as the black sheep of the series by many). Meanwhile the original Playstation had three successful Wipeout titles. Pure (2005) on the PSP demonstrated the platform's pixel-pushing power (as compared to the other hand-held) however Pulse (2007) doesn't seem to have duplicated Pure's sales. Is the (PS3) console market ready for Wipeout? I hope so but only time will tell.

[Chill]

I still think that respawning should have an on and off option in later installments, as well as the camera's movement effect...

[Lance]

I think that at long last we may have found a WipeoutZone member who is even more verbally voluminous than I am. :)

In a very textual way.

[Rubix42]

While I agree with many points you make HydrogLox, I must say, the fact that Ratchet and Clank sold 1 million on the PS3 is more significant that the sales numbers of the franchise on the PS2.

Why you ask? Because the install base of people who own the PS3 is much smaller than the PS2. So to see that much penetration of the installed market through the game is a great success.

I would imagine Wipeout HD will see similar success. If only because the majority of PS3 owners right now are die hard sony fans that have their favorite franchises.

[mdhay]

Too much FMV at times when there should have been gameplay.

Point made; 23 hours is crap compared to MGS1's play time.

I'll shut up now....

[Amon]

Too much FMV at times when there should have been gameplay.

MGS4 is no HALO or COD. It tells a story much more complex, there is simply no way imo to do that with gameplay only.

[Amon]

Point made; 23 hours is crap compared to MGS1's play time.

I'll shut up now....

Playtime can be made of lots of things. In MGS1 there is lots of backtracking.

But apart from that i'm quite sure that MGS4 is much longer than MGS1. And it can be replayed many more times.

[Rubix42]

If you skip all the cutscenes in MGS4, the game is not much longer than 5 or 6 hours if you hurry. You can stretch it to 10 or so if you want.

[Amon]

If you skip all the cutscenes in MGS4, the game is not much longer than 5 or 6 hours if you hurry. You can stretch it to 10 or so if you want.

10 hours full of genius for me, more than enough.

Seriously, you can't talk MGS with me, for my tastes there's nothing better around :)

[Axel]

I know, your always playing the bloody game LOL. But yes MGS4 was brilliant for me as well. Yes overkill with the movies. But very well done none the less :)

[Lance]

.
Could we get back to the petition against respawning, please?
.

[Perforu]

Putting in my five cents:

IMHO, there should be no respawning. If you explode, you switch to observer mode. A decent observer mode with options such as switching between the views and people you are observing. Good example of decent observer mode is Quake series. I'd say a respawn in a Wipeout game would be a bit against Wipeout spirit.

[Amorbis]

I'd say that on the whole re-spawning is a good thing for online multiplayer. In the time it takes for the ship to explode better pilots will be too far away for the eliminated pilot to pose a threat. For beginner races it will keep the new pilots wanting to play online, I know if I was a beginner and kept getting eliminated I would probably get annoyed and be reluctant to play online.

For pro pilot races it shouldn't really be there. Pro pilots can still catch up with each other and respawning might mess up the race sometimes if each player is able to constantly eliminate each other.

Respawning is great for the new pilots that are still getting to know the game but in competitive play I'd rather see an observer mode, like what Perforu said.

[Rapier Racer]

Beginners... online... oh that sounds like a good combination. Unless they play venom in which case getting eliminated should be too much of an issue, unless the player in question is appalling.

As for the good players getting away I see a few people think this, you realize there are big fights upfront right and a 4 second lead can quickly turn into no lead?

[Colin Berry]

Everyone was a beginner once

[Flashback Jack]

Once respawned, you only have roughly 30% of total shield. Saw it in a video. Barrel roll once and you're about to explode again. :)

- F

[Rapier Racer]

Everyone was a beginner once

Yep, and when I buy a new game and am I beginner myself the last thing I would do is jump straight online to receive a good slaughtering.

[Lance]

However, there are seemingly many unlike yourself who are desperate to achieve dead sheepitude.

[Amorbis]

I'm sure that many people that will buy HD are going to be new to the series and will want to go online. Every online game you go on there is always a new person ready to be beaten and learn from the experience. Not everyone is going to get get their skill up before they brave the online modes. Respawning sort of keeps people wanting to play more and makes them less frustrated.

[RJ O'Connell]

Yep, and when I buy a new game and am I beginner myself the last thing I would do is jump straight online to receive a good slaughtering.
Heh, sounds like what I'll end up doing once I finally get to play Paradise live! ;) HD on the other hand...I think both of us will end up going straight into online once the game has been freshly burned onto the HDD. ;)

[Colin Berry]

Yep, and when I buy a new game and am I beginner myself the last thing I would do is jump straight online to receive a good slaughtering.

Yeah but if you by chance meet any of the dev team online tomorrow evening you might get a little bit of a kicking.. :P

[Rapier Racer]

Oohh that sounds like a challenge! :P

A kicking you say... we'll see :g This game is 80% Pure, and Pure is my baby :banzai

[rushin]

pssst colin, i think a dev team Vs wipeoutzone challenge needs setting up :)

[RJ O'Connell]

Count your blessings Arnaud isn't a game tester ;)

[leungbok]

Yeah but if you by chance meet any of the dev team online tomorrow evening you might get a little bit of a kicking.. :P

Hey guys, the best occasion to avenge for the long, long, long and painfull waiting on HD :g:banzai

[eLhabib]

Colin, you're saying some of the devs are gonna be online tomorrow?
It's AWN, baby! :twisted

[Colin Berry]

Nothing official but I suspect a few of us will be online later in the evening to check things out and play the odd game :D

[SouthendRage]

Cool, can't wait to get online tonight! Find how good the devs are, I hope you put up a good fight :P

[Axel]

Oh man, that mens I will definately have to come online now then lol. I hope when your last because of respawn, we don't get a quake or anything like that for some time. That will tick a lot of peeps off!!!

[Medusa]

I have to say I find it hilarious to read that respawning is supposed to be good for newbies. Online is NOT a good mode for beginners unless they're racing against equally new players. Single player mode to learn the game, Vector class to learn the game...oh wait, it's gone now isn't it?:lol

Anyone remember playing Pulse when you were stuck racing noobs? They often seemed so frustrated they'd disconnect, and then there were the ones who actually turned around and tried racing backwards to ruin the other players' races. This happened when eliminations were still eliminations. With a respawn, ticked off people can keep respawning and screwing up the real race. Oh joy. Oh well. *Oh WipeoutZone members, thank goodness for you, for the races we will have, will be good races too-oo...*:P

@Colin: hope I didn't sound rude in my previous post, I was under the misconception that you thought everyone was just terrified of anything new (not the case...).

[Egg]

But surely noobs acting like idiots is a problem with any online game? In fact, experienced players spitting their dummies out is equally as bad.

[Medusa]

Yep, that's right.

*looks for dummy...finds a mirror...cha-ching!*

[infoxicated]

I'm throwing my hat in the ring with regards to having an option to disable respawns. I had a tournament robbed from me tonight due to some lap-down, respawned idiot ramming me off of that great big over-rated, open-sided pile of **** in the sky.

Being rammed off of the (many, many, many) open sided sections in Pulse was the reason I quit playing that game online.

Having idiots respan and allowing them to affect the outcome of the race when they're a lap down is just going to ruin the experience for everyone that's not a newbie. Or an idiot.

[Keenan]

I' m tossing my hat in the other side of the ring. In a MP match online, if you are going to stay connected until the race finishes, than you should be able to respawn.

If they take out respawning, it should automatically drop me back into last place and disconnect me from the match, but that would be a nightmarish netcode to write. No respawns would kill the online community to have people sitting doing nothing because they got bounced out. Especially if it happened right away at the start of a race. Give a penalty for letting someone get blown up, and let them continue playing I say.

Plus, it gives you opportunity's for revenge:banzai

Agree with this.


But surely noobs acting like idiots is a problem with any online game? In fact, experienced players spitting their dummies out is equally as bad.

Worse in my opinion.

[Skvall]

I think you are exaggerating the downside of no respawns. Im talking about the waiting time. A race is over pretty quickly so having to wait is not a problem i.m.o.

The first time I was killed and respawned I thought I was just going to be able to have som fun as a ghost until the next race started. But some corners later I realized I was still in the race hehe. That could be a solution for the waiting "problem".

I think respawns should be turned off by default, but also having the option to turn it on would be best.

If this cant be achieved, please have a bigger penalty for being eliminated. 30% energy is ok, but respawn time should be longer. Or wait, that is even if you get the option to turn it off completely. ;)

[eLhabib]

I'll have to admit that a race with 8 good pilots and weapons on can be so unforgivingly brutal, that when it kills you on the first lap you are quite thankful for getting respawned :paperbag I didn't say that. No, no, someone stole my account and typed it using my name...

[Axel]

I know what you mean mate. I dropped from first in Anulpha Pass to last after being killed. Sometimes it pays to hang behind a little :)

But when you are playing against really good pilots and you die, you have basically lost. Might as well be dead lol.

[Colin Berry]

I'll have to admit that a race with 8 good pilots and weapons on can be so unforgivingly brutal, that when it kills you on the first lap you are quite thankful for getting respawned :paperbag I didn't say that. No, no, someone stole my account and typed it using my name...

*cough*

*ahem*

*cough*

actually I cant add anything to this other than what I have already said, the team are taking note of such things and fingers crossed for future updates

[eLhabib]

yeah I knew you'd jump on this as soon as I (ahem, I mean someone else) typed it... ;)

[Darkdrium777]

To the contrary of eLhabib, I do not modify my original opinion. I got killed once or twice, but I found it incredibly cheap to be able to overcome the other guys and finish second still (The original position I was in when I got killed, or rather, killed myself). This was when I started playing Phantom online, and didn't know the reverse tracks (And the guy hosted practically only reverses). Now I know them, and don't get killed: it's that simple.
Respawn, if you don't care about the position you will be in, makes you care less for your driving and therefore prevents you from getting any better. Instead, you say: 'Oh, I'll just respawn in five seconds'. If you actually died and were completely eliminated, you'd think: 'I've got to get better on that track so I don't die'. I'm still workin with that old philosophy, even though it is now obsolete, because it makes me that much better at the game, that philosophy pushes you to surpass yourself more than the other one.

[eLhabib]

Well, when I die in a race it's due to heavy weapons fire, not hitting walls. Especially in the first lap of a race, where the pack is close together, it can easily happen that you get hit by a quake, rockets, missiles, even plasma, all within 15 seconds. Even more so when you are in the front of the pack. There's really no way to avoid that, you can't even absorb enough to avoid elimination. In this situation, the respawn comes in handy.

Maybe it would be smart to enable a respawn only for the first lap, seeing as after that, the pack is more spread out and the weapons fire is not that intense.

By the way, I have discovered the joy of Avalon racing for myself, it really is the supreme way of racing. Gets rid of the BR oversaturation as well.

[Rubix42]

I was pretty open to this at first, now I'm just not sure.

I wish the respawn had a skill decider, like you can respawn if it was from weapons fire, but if you just got lapped and wipeout from your own lack of skill, see ya next race;)

[Lance]

I am against respawning. Two reasons:
1) It allows an incompetent but petty racer to muck up the game.
2) Being eliminated from the race online is, as Darkdrium points out [me too, +1 ], an incentive to get better.

[Lance]

I will leave this message here for a short time, but I am deleting the potential flame-war-inducing posts made by some users immediately.

I'll be blunt about this: Moderation should be left to the moderators. Discussion of post quality and suitability is itself offtopic and should be carried out via PMs to the admin and the mods. And I don't want to see a war start over insulting disparagement of the posts of other users.

[infoxicated]

I don't think he's wanting you to justify your post (although who knows? - he is the Baron of Bluntness), I think he's just prompting you to add to the discussion.

Personally, I'd rather you gave an example to demonstrate your own take on the subject rather than just quoting someone else. It's fine to quote if you're going to add to what they've said, but otherwise it just makes a post kind of redundant.

But yeah - what Lance said; moderating should be left to the moderators.