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Frances_Penfold
9th September 2008, 07:41 PM
Features of Wipeout HD's pilot assist are revealed in eLhabib's most excellent interview with Tony Buckley (http://elhabib.at/2008/09/08/elhabibat-video-force-premiere-wipeout-hd/)

Sounds like:

1. Auto-assist will automatically be turned on for players that say they are new to Wipeout.

2. Auto-assist "kicks in" only when you are about to hit a wall.

3. When auto-assist kicks in, your speed is diminished by ~5%.

Personally, I think this is a good feature to make the game accessible to newcomers. I highly doubt that newcomers are going to be beating experienced pilots either with or without the pilot assist. I guess my remaining concern is that, somehow, the pilot assist will facilitate some sort of exploit that can be used by skilled pilots-- I hope this possibility was thoroughly evaluated by game testers. I also hope that pilot assist can be disabled for online matches, if so desired by the host.

What do you guys think?

leungbok
9th September 2008, 08:49 PM
Well, if auto-assist low the speed (i thought about something like that, several week's ago), i don't think good pilots will have a big interest on this feature.
Looking at El Habib's video, it seems that the auto-assist help the player to drive on the middle of the track, and you know like me, that the best trajectories are often close to the walls. So i don't think it can be a big help for the best pilots (happily). ;)

Rapier Racer
9th September 2008, 08:54 PM
It's already been said that pilot assist does not work for multiplayer mode.

Linchpin
9th September 2008, 09:23 PM
I think that it is good overall .
But maybe like you say , the host should be able to set a rule that forces pilot assist off for all players .

eLhabib
9th September 2008, 09:23 PM
It's already been said that pilot assist does not work for multiplayer mode.
Really? Where? I am still a little bit concerned about a potential exploit with pilot assist. Picture a turn like the hard hairpin left right after the long starting right at Chenghou - there's some intense braking needed at phantom speeds. If pilot assist lets you zip through the corner at 95% speed, that's still a lot faster than flying it the normal way. I guess we will only know when we get the game in our hands.
Even if it's not in mutliplayer, it could still ruin the record tables.

Task
9th September 2008, 09:25 PM
And there's no way anyone's going to get a record time with pilot assist on. Did you notice when it kicks in? Before you hit the wall by a significant amount. So the track is effectively narrower with pilot assist on. The fast line typically requires the full width of the track. So with that and what leungbok pointed out, I'm not seeing a chance of exploit.

That being said, if you're bad at Phantom or something, I can see pilot assist helping you at least get _somewhere_, which I'd say is pretty damn cool!

Rapier Racer
9th September 2008, 11:44 PM
Hmm a search has turned out fruitless, I heard it somewhere I know I did damn it...

Rubix42
10th September 2008, 12:01 AM
I'm no Wipeout Expert, I will never challenge on the record tables, ever.

I highly doubt that any pilot assist would be exploitable to get faster times. Like in Chenghou, on that hairpin, it's an assist, but I bet it won't let you take the turn at 95%. I'd bet that it continues to lower the speed the worse you do.

Darkdrium777
10th September 2008, 01:56 AM
Strange RR I've been reading all about HD and I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe if you find it it will be one piece I didn't read... Anyway:

Pilot assist will help you take the hairpin on Chengou, but it won't be faster than without. The fastest way through is airbraking and staying very close to the inner corner, not possible with assist. Also, the chicane at the end for example is much faster without than with. Pilot assist won't be faster than without I am sure. Like leungbok said sometimes you must pass close to walls, well with PA (The inverse of AP xD) you can't do that. ;)

Frances_Penfold
10th September 2008, 02:57 AM
I think some of you guys are too optimistic that "there is no way" pilot assist would ever be used for an exploit ;)

Little things of this nature OFTEN end up as the basis of an exploit in racing games-- "nose down" in Wipeout Pure/Pulse giving a speed advantage... perfect boost start coupled with perfect mini turbos in Mario Kart DS allowing you to travel unimpeded over any terrain... physics engine in F-Zero GX giving a speed advantage to heavy ships when turning. I'm sure the ultimate ramifications of such features as exploits weren't recognized during development or testing. People try things with video games that designers and testers would never have imagined.

My concern for the pilot assist is that it could turn somehow improve speed around corners-- maybe allowing a pilot to drive straight through a corner (albeit with a 5% speed reduction) rather than use the airbrakes.

My guess is that probably a good feature with no value as an exploit. I just hope it was inspected more thoroughly than, say, a U.S. presidential candidate may have researched his V.P running mate ;)

Edit-- in terms of being able to disable pilot assist in multiplayer, that would be good-- but my bigger concern lies with whether pilot assist can be active for Time Trials and for Speed Laps.

Lance
10th September 2008, 03:24 AM
I think that all the wannabe presidential candidates of the past couple of years are in reality pseudoclones of alien-abducted citizens who were sent down to replace the originals as psychosocial experiments in a decades-long study of humans.

------

I reallyreally hope that the Pilot Assist cannot at all at all be used to gain speed.

Wip3ou7
10th September 2008, 06:27 AM
Well if you suck and then using it would be helping you gain speed right?

Axel
10th September 2008, 11:52 AM
Well the good thing about this game being on the PSN network is that patches can be forced onto the client to update the game. Besides, you will need to have a upto date version of the game if you want to upload your time on the world rankings remember.

But yeah I was hoping for a greater decrease in speed, 10% would have been better IMO. But it will be interesting to see if anybody finds a exploit.

chboing
10th September 2008, 01:44 PM
one solution would be : "have fun offline with all the exploit and great laps you can do with pilot assist, but be aware none of those will be usable outside the offline mode"

hence, no pilot assist in the top ranking, no pilot assist in online races (or switchable), no pilot assist in TT at all.
The only thing you can do if you're a god of pilot assist, is take your video recorder and youtube :p

Axel
10th September 2008, 01:49 PM
Or have PA next to our TT scores on the record sheets to show that you used PA to acheive your times :D

JABBERJAW
11th September 2008, 03:59 AM
I was thinking the exact same thing as El habib about the sharp turns. I have a really bad feeling that this is going to be the case, making it essentially fusion (wall riding = faster). I hope not though. I think this feature is completely unnessesary. The slowest speed is so slow, that getting used to it is not that bad. If it ends up making the race slower by a decent amount, then I don't care though. If the race is slower by 2 seconds compared to a perfect race, then it completely sucks, and the testing of the feature was not performed properly. Lets wait and see, but I hope that the programmers of this feature are reading this thread.

Frances_Penfold
11th September 2008, 04:29 AM
I hope the programmers of Pilot Assist traveled into their future, which is our present, then read this thread, then traveled back to their past to change Wipeout HD so it is perfect for our future :)

What seems non-intuitive to me is that the slowdown is only 5% (if indeed that is what it is-- the interview in question said it was "about 5%" if I recall correctly). That seems like a pretty modest penalty-- though of course I haven't played the game, maybe it is right on.

cybrpnk
11th September 2008, 05:15 AM
I'm pretty sure pilot assist was implemented more as a training tool for newcomers to get a feel for the layout of the track...I highly doubt pilot assist will be made available in time trials and speed laps...

As much as it may seem like pilot assist will help one achieve faster times, I reckon you would achieve even better times without it...each pilot has their own flying style and as mentioned before in another post, there is never really one definitive racing line in WipEout...

coupled with the fact the each team's craft behaves differently which will then affect the different flying styles...I don't see how pilot assist can help in understanding the little, more finer nuances to piloting...like pitch control etc...and achieving times better than a super proficient pilot that knows the finer skills like pitch control, side shifting...and *shock horror blasphemy!!!* barrel rolls...

Anyway...I don't know what I'm rambling on about...all i know is...I'm turning this one off as soon as I get my hands on HD...

eLhabib
11th September 2008, 08:38 AM
I strongly disagree with the voices saying Pilot Assist is unnecessary. IMHO it is perfect for players who are new to the game. Why? Well, the true bliss of wipEout only comes out at higher speeds, and for a total beginner even Flash is blazingly fast, so he will be crashing all the time, not really picking up speed, and therefore fun. I just hope it won't be abuseable.

ZenDJiNN
11th September 2008, 11:38 AM
I agree, Pilot Assist is something that's long overdue. I'm pretty good at Flash but when i have a go at Rapier or Phantom, it's really hard NOT to hit the walls etc. :)

I'm really looking forward to trying it out (once i get a PS3 of course).

cybrpnk
11th September 2008, 12:52 PM
I strongly disagree with the voices saying Pilot Assist is unnecessary. IMHO it is perfect for players who are new to the game. Why? Well, the true bliss of wipEout only comes out at higher speeds, and for a total beginner even Flash is blazingly fast, so he will be crashing all the time, not really picking up speed, and therefore fun. I just hope it won't be abuseable.

Well...wasn't saying it was unnecessary...just that if it was for newcomers...then let it be only a option for newcomers to learn the ropes...not carry it over into things like time trials and speed laps...

Aw well...can't really say much until we do download the game...

Flashback Jack
11th September 2008, 04:06 PM
I strongly disagree with the voices saying Pilot Assist is unnecessary. IMHO it is perfect for players who are new to the game.

If only it were available in Wipeout XL. I started playing it seriously a few days ago and my noobishness in it is probably unparalleled at this point. I slam into walls on the most gentle curves, it's hilarious.

But going along with the tradeoffs, I can't fathom any sort of exploit it might expose us to considering the drop in speed it gives when it runs outside the guided line, but I do see it increasing the reach of the game, which is a downright difficult thing to wrap one's head around if a person has never before flown a vechicle with all the responsiveness of mush.

- F

Lance
11th September 2008, 04:56 PM
"...with all the responsiveness of mush."

Been racing with Qirex, have we? :D

Flashback Jack
11th September 2008, 06:11 PM
No man, Ag-systems for now. Can you imagine? Not much shield on the thing, but one must be loyal to their teamsake.

- F

Lance
11th September 2008, 11:09 PM
AG-S is actually pretty manoeuverable compared to Qirex and Auricom, so be warned about brickness. :D

um... I appear to be straying from the topic. [puts Qirex in reverse]

Darkdrium777
11th September 2008, 11:20 PM
Too late, you're already fifty meters close to the wall and there's nothing you can do in a Qirex to prevent the crash. :lol

Joking aside: I believe the only way to know how PA works is when we get the game. Personally I believe it won't be exploitable but I share the concerns of those who think it might be if it is allowed everywhere and not only in single player.

cybrpnk
12th September 2008, 05:37 AM
AG-S is actually pretty manoeuverable compared to Qirex and Auricom, so be warned about brickness. :D

um... I appear to be straying from the topic. [puts Qirex in reverse]

Main reason why AG-5Y5 is my speed demon of choice...high manouverability....stuff the low shield...just crank round the track, keep hitting absorb and pray you don't get taken out by 3 rockets at once...

But then I digress too...

Lance
12th September 2008, 03:13 PM
Lance, the mod, erratically assisting pilots to get back on track since 2001. :g

Medusa
12th September 2008, 04:50 PM
Going back to what Rapier Racer said he thought he read...
I thought I read that too!

Unfortunately I don't remember who posted what I thought I read.

I do not think Pilot assist should be allowed in any uploaded times or of course during online racing - if it's for beginners, than it should be turned off once they're done in "practice mode".

Of course opinions are a dime a dozen, and gas is expensive these days...

RJ O'Connell
12th September 2008, 05:52 PM
IIRC, Colin stated Pilot Assist users wouldn't be able to touch the top level of times. So personally, I would NOT have a problem with it being used online by novice players. It can help them contend when they're just starting out, eventually players will have to switch it off in order to get results. Just like, say, Forza 2.

Task
12th September 2008, 06:35 PM
it might be if it is allowed everywhere and not only in single player.I just realized something... It can't be available in all other modes!
I mean, just imagine if PA was usable in Zone mode. You could set it up and put the controller down and walk away! 8 D

So all that's left to find out is how many modes it's allowed in, we know it can't be all of them!

eLhabib
12th September 2008, 06:44 PM
True that.

Asayyeah
12th September 2008, 07:28 PM
I mean, just imagine if PA was usable in Zone mode. You could set it up and put the controller down and walk away! 8 D

I loled a lot on this comparing to Al's infinite autopilote mode for W3O ( SE?)
Seems you getting better and better Jay ( health, jokes and wipeout :D)

Sausehuhn
17th September 2008, 08:33 PM
You can see the Pilot Assist in action here (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/40040.html) (and of course a nice explosion).

BARTgai
17th September 2008, 11:03 PM
pretty sweet explosion there ;) I loved when it said "You have earned a trophy. Happy Accident?" :g

Darkdrium777
18th September 2008, 12:00 AM
In fact this terrible pilot earned two trophies. Hoping the next 36 are more difficult.

RJ O'Connell
18th September 2008, 04:44 AM
He looked competent with Pilot Assist on, WipEout is inherently a tough game. The "Happy Accident?" trophy is for doing one barrel roll.

Rapier Racer
18th September 2008, 09:53 PM
Well theres always the Zone 75 trophy, even with Moa Therma the noobs/casuals might still struggle.

As long as the game has the usual, well whats seen by everyone else as ridiculously hard speed and AI settings I'm not too worried about how easy the trophies are to earn. There are always going to be lots of easy trophies just like there are easy as pie 360 achievements, you have to keep the average gamer happy too.

**holds back on casual gamer insults even though it is very hard***

Wip3ou7
22nd September 2008, 11:36 AM
I still don't agree with Pilot Assist... I mean, isn't this why we have multiple speed classes in WipEout? You start slow and work your way up. The game is far too easy in the beginning to warrant the need for a pilot assist.

eLhabib
22nd September 2008, 11:40 AM
oh believe me, there are people who are desperately in need of pilot assist, even on venom speeds. I know some, and no, not my granny and the cleaning lady, but people who are pretty firm in other racing games!

Wip3ou7
22nd September 2008, 11:45 AM
I dont know... It just seems so wrong.

Why arent you online on psn habib lets play somethin ;)

eLhabib
22nd September 2008, 12:44 PM
cuz I don't have anything! :P
my PS3 sits there waiting for thursday!

cybrpnk
22nd September 2008, 01:16 PM
kinda know the feeling...although, I have games like Oblivion to finish...I refuse to touch the PS3 until thursday too...

I've never been this excited since I heard that Rage Against The Machine was coming to Sydney and got to see them on both accounts here...*starts twitching*

0L4F
22nd September 2008, 04:42 PM
Although I think that Pilot Assist is probably a fantastic feature for the uninitiated pilots, I also think that, if you would rely on it too much as a new pilot, it's going to take a lot longer for you to become a 'real' AG-pilot.

If Pilot Assist existed 10+ years ago when I had my first WipEout experience, I'd probably have switched it on.

But I am thankful I learned the hard way, and bit through all the beginners' frustration in 2097, and then suddenly got onto a level of true WipEout BLISS when I eventually 'got it'.

In a Qirex, even ;)

lunar
28th September 2008, 03:01 PM
What does everyone think of Pilot Assist online now that the game is out?

I think it`s ultimately faster with it switched off. But a guy using pilot assist can beat a better player not using it, if he gets the right weapons. On Chenghou, for example, I think you can use it to blast the first hairpin and get clear, then you just need a bomb or two and you`re away. I presume you can`t lose energy except through weapon hits with pilot assist - another advantage. I`ve only used it once, to get the trophy, but you see people using it online. My kids use it and that`s great for them as they couldn`t play otherwise, but online I`ve seen some careless players just PA-ping-ponging their way around the track and beating braver players, of equal ability, who don`t like to use it. I think it should be disabled globally for online play, or it should be an option that has to be enabled by the host, with default to off, and a clear indicator that it is a pilot assist enabled/disabled race or tournament.

sakerbax
28th September 2008, 03:11 PM
bleh with pilot assist you move away from the edges preventing sharper curves and a decent racing line. in my opinion if you lose to a guy with pilot assist on you have two options, use it or keep playing because after some time you'll improve and the pilot assist guy will still suck

"you" isn't meant for you ofc =)

eLhabib
28th September 2008, 03:26 PM
I've played some people online who opened a lobby with a phantom tourney on all 8 tracks (forward), I thought hey, let's see if they can handle it ;) On relatively straight tracks I gained about 8 seconds per lap on them, lapping them on lap 4 usually, so, yeah, they clearly couldn't handle it. Then, when we came to Chenghou, all of a sudden they really kept up with me pretty well, which is due to the fact that I can't navigate the tricky courses like Chenghou and Sebenco that well yet, which means that due to using PA, those guys caught up to me everytime I crashed into a hard turn. So PA certainly DOES help the inexperienced, but if you are really good on a track at any given speed, you will be a lot slower with PA on because it doesn't let you cut as close to the wall as you'd like.

What I don't understand, though, is what fun they get out of playing Chenghou Phantom with PA on - it's not like they are even close to flying themselves, y'know? :?

lunar
28th September 2008, 03:27 PM
I understood you ;) and even if you did mean me you would still have a point. :)

I`m certainly not ever going to use it online - as there`s no point to the game if you do, imo. I don`t think I`ve lost to PA, but I had a race on Vineta K where the leader was using it and it was a hell of a job to catch him as I use Qirex so don`t accelerate quickly, got shot up and caught in the pack at the start, and struggled to get clear again because of weapons, while the PA guy was away and flying like he was pissed but keeping pace almost enough to win. I`m not asking anyone to cry for me, but I don`t think races should be decided like this. I agree with those who say that online shouldn`t be elitist, but there should be standards.... and people shouldn`t win unless they have earned it.

eLhabib
28th September 2008, 03:44 PM
Honestly, I don't worry about it at all. 99% of the people playing online are no competition, with or without PA, and the 1% that's good is most likely on wo'zone, and will be playing HD online in the long run - and they don't use PA, never would.

Btw I don't mean to sound cocky here, it's just that most people online who are playing Rapier or Phantom (= races I might enter) haven't even bothered to try and learn the game at Venom...

Jambo
28th September 2008, 03:47 PM
Thats a very good point, I always thought I kinda sucked at WipEout despite my love for it, but I have lost about 2 races online! If I come up against any of you guys it will be handed to me but until then i can feel good!

Not using pilot assist btw

leungbok
28th September 2008, 03:49 PM
I have just done some experiments offline, with PA on, because i had the same adventure than you, El, with guys choosing phantom class. I choose chengou reverse that i only raced 2 times online in fast lap mode (despite i don't know the track, my best time after 4/5 laps is 26.29). Some of you mates, who started to know this track, will be able to judge if the help is significant.

captain howdy
28th September 2008, 04:32 PM
I'm totally new to Wipeout (HD is the first game I've ever played in the series) and one of the first things I did after downloading it was turn off pilot assist. It just seemed unnecessary to me. I still crash into walls all the time, but I've won tons of online races in Rapier class.

I think it's just a matter of learning the tracks.

Frances_Penfold
28th September 2008, 04:47 PM
Quite a few neogaff'ers irritated with the Pilot Assist, which they think is a clear advantage to average-ability players.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=335458&page=43

I haven't had much time to play WOHD at all yet (with or without Pilot Assist). But from what I have seen so far, my feeling is that (1) it's a great addition to the game; but (2) there should be a larger penalty for its use. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to have an automatic 3-5% speed reduction associated with PA (even when it's not pushing you away from a side wall).

lunar
28th September 2008, 04:57 PM
I agree with you, Frances, and with eL. It`s true that the top 1% need not be troubled by PA because they will be faster without it and beat PA users without it (unless we have some nasty surprises about what PA can do on the technical courses). However, a lot of keen players will never be in that top 1%, do make mistakes, and maybe they feel they are getting beaten undeservedly by PA users. It would be ironic if in an attempt to make wipeout less elitist, only the elite could overcome the mechanism put in place to make it less elitist. Or would that be a paradox? *Dictionary time*

Say a new online FPS came out, with an auto-targeting system that enabled inexperienced players to lock on to nearby enemies at 75% of the speed of a top player, without having to do anything. This wouldn`t worry the top players, and might enable people like me who utterly suck at FPS games to have a go online, but for those who weren`t so good, but who still wanted to play the game "properly" and play the game using their own skills it would be unfair.

Darkdrium777
28th September 2008, 05:37 PM
I forgot to turn off PA (Was getting the trophy) for an online Phantom race on Moa Therma. Needless to say, I lost because I had to turn it off. Next race I owned them all. Pilot Assist doesn't help me, and doesn't help them either (Well it does, but they never win because of it).

captain howdy
28th September 2008, 05:40 PM
i don't see why there simply isn't an option for the host to turn off pilot assist for all participating users. and then out in the lobby, they could have a filter option for rooms that do allow it and those that don't. that way, people who support or oppose the idea of other racers using it could each have their own space to play.

emwu23
28th September 2008, 05:46 PM
Lunar:"....Say a new online FPS came out, with an auto-targeting system that enabled inexperienced players to lock on to nearby enemies at 75% of the speed of a top player, without having to do anything...."

Yeah and new tekken where you would have an auto-combo system....

captain howdy
28th September 2008, 05:47 PM
Tekken already has an auto-combo system. It's called "button-mashing".

(:

Lance
28th September 2008, 06:02 PM
@Lunar: an ironic paradox?

bakkufu
28th September 2008, 06:03 PM
When I first installed HD, I was asked about turning on PA, now with the exception of the trophy, I won't be using PA myself for two reasons.

Reason 1: PA doesn't allow me to make daring manouvers in races such as BR boosting the last straight of Moa Therma and the like, if I screw up, its my fault and thats the risk I run for racing the way I do.

Reason 2: I have always found the autopilot tends to disengage in harsh corners, not drive through packs of mines and bombs or even try and ram opponents in a tight pack. If its the same AI system then methinks I'll be turning that particular feature off lol :D

leungbok
28th September 2008, 07:03 PM
I just made a test's online with El-habib. Phantom no weapons tournament with 6 tracks (3 easy ones : moa therma etc. & 3 tortuous ones : sol2 reverse, chengou ...). I used pilot assist (for once, i swear;) )and El without PA. On the easy ones, i was 3/5 seconds behind, but on the difficult sol2 reverse (i must precise i don't know this track and i hit lot of walls) i was just 1/2 seconds behind El with 2 or 3 perfect laps.
On these kind of track it's a huge help, i think.:(

eLhabib
28th September 2008, 09:16 PM
True, PA helps a lot on twisty tracks.
@lunar: I agree with your post. the elite must not be worried about PA, but the aspiring advanced player without PA might have a considerable disadvantage against a noob with PA. The easy solution to this problem would be, like was said, to penalize PA use constantly with a 5% speed loss.

@bakkufu: you know you can now cut off the Autopilot anytime by pressing absorb, right?

bakkufu
28th September 2008, 10:22 PM
@bakkufu: you know you can now cut off the Autopilot anytime by pressing absorb, right?

yes, but given the daftness of the autopilot in past Wipeouts, I'd rather get a full absorb out of them rather than use them lol

leungbok
28th September 2008, 10:38 PM
. the elite must not be worried about PA, but the aspiring advanced player without PA might have a considerable disadvantage against a noob with PA.

So, only one solution, make part of the elite :g

Rapier Racer
29th September 2008, 12:09 AM
@ bakkufu HDs auto pilot is actually quite good, yes it's like the old days where it magically seems to be able to fly the ship faster than the player even while missing speed pads it can catch and pass other Elite difficulty AI ships.

More on the topic. I did not realize PA worked this way in that a player can turn it on once they join an online game. This should be controlled by the host, I might have overreacted on a few things in the past but this really is just nonsense, end of story.

Miths
29th September 2008, 12:36 AM
I had sworn I wouldn't use pilot assist, but it just saved my behind and got me a bronze medal in a rapier time trial on Sol 2 (I was a staggering four seconds short without PA, after several attempts). Even on lower speed classes I spend most of my time slamming into or scraping against walls on that damn track - even with the most maneuovrable craft.
I'm finally starting to get the hang of Chenghou Project (still making contact with the wall on that first sharp corner more often than not though), so now Sol 2 is really the only track I hate :p. Well, that and to some extent Sebenco Climb in races, as the AI - even on novice - seems to handle that track unusually well. I actually have an easier time on Sol 2 when I'm up against them - despite all the wall scraping and slamming :).

Darkdrium777
29th September 2008, 12:59 AM
You're going to love Sol 2 Reverse then :D

/sarcasm.

leungbok
29th September 2008, 01:05 AM
I agree Rapier, i think it's worst than respawn. There's a huge number of phantom games in which, players using PA, chooses the most technical tracks (for example, sebenco reverse) just for "pêter plus haut que son cul", french expression which means approximatively "to fart at a higher level than his butt". To chose for playing online a class and a track that someone's don't master really, , let see an unfair and twisted behavior. I won a race hosted by a PA user, in phantom on sebenco that the name was "Elite-killer07" (a joke, not sure !:naughty) I'm persuaded that most of zoners will have no problem to win against those guys, but for fair and talented newcomers in HD, it can be very frustrating. There was disagreements here about "jay's mod" and "barrel rolls", but both were about skilled pilots points of view, with PA the discuss is about unskilled ones. I love this game, and i understand the politics of enlarging the players mass. I like that a lot of people plays wipeout, but to give immédiatly access to the usualy long time training's category, can killed the interest in the game for a lot of new players. Where's the proud feeling we feel when we finally manage all the difficulties in the game ? Another french sentence : "à vaincre sans péril, on triomphe sans gloire" - "a win without danger is a win without glory". PA must be very penalised (no points & rewards for example) and need the option of disable it online.
I hope my awfull english haven't morphed my message

Frances_Penfold
29th September 2008, 03:06 AM
Is this a joke? :dizzy

"just got that 99 lap speed run trophy. i wasn't willing to actually sit down and play through it so i taped the X button down, played on phantom difficulty, and put on pilot assist and walked away for 30 minutes; worked like a charm."

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12979793&postcount=2112

Task
29th September 2008, 03:27 AM
Ha!
Knew it would happen!
With PA you can drop the controller and walk away...

A shield energy penalty might be nice on PA (it turns you away, but costs some speed and shield) but then on TT races you've got infinite shield so that wouldn't fix it.

Nah, good hack to get a cheap trophy without effort. Anyone who enjoys something earned without effort likely deserves what they get. 8 D

Darkdrium777
29th September 2008, 03:32 AM
Sadly this is true, I tried it out for some laps on Venom and it works perfectly well, albeit some falls sometimes. I don't know if it works on Phantom. However I assure you that if you do just that (Tape the X button and leave pilot assist on) you won't be doing record times anytime soon. ;)

RJ O'Connell
29th September 2008, 04:09 AM
99 Laps is 99 Laps, I don't see that tape trick as a problem - though it is a slightly less ethical way to earn that trophy.

eLhabib
29th September 2008, 12:10 PM
I got my lapped out trophy trying to beat Zico's time, and 99 laps weren't even enough :P

Lenugbok: I fully agree with your post. Pilot Assist shouldn't be allowed for online, IMHO. Do the training first, THEN get online. Noobs pretending to race on Phantom with PA is just ridiculous, even more so when they actually win against rather skilled players who don't use PA.

Sausehuhn
29th September 2008, 12:30 PM
Agreed.
So hopefully we'll see that with further patches. Along with the Disable Option for BR.

Btw: Wouldn't it be nice to have small indicator in the online selection whether BRs / PA / Headsets are active in the race?

defce
29th September 2008, 12:32 PM
i don't see why there simply isn't an option for the host to turn off pilot assist for all participating users. and then out in the lobby, they could have a filter option for rooms that do allow it and those that don't. that way, people who support or oppose the idea of other racers using it could each have their own space to play.

this sounds like common sense :)

AdrenalineBurst
4th October 2008, 02:14 PM
I think the number of Pilot assist players is just filth,

I always seem to be the only person who plays without it and when i get cusses for crashing and i reply ' you use PA' its like WW3... If your gonna be honorable about a game at least PLAY IT HOW ITS MEANT TO BE PLAYED.

I cannot stress enough how GB (Game-breaking) this is that on tracks such as as somin climb (lol) There are 2 corners which are incredibly hard to take on phantom yet on noob assist they just gracefully go around the corner without a care in the world, hell if someone with PA is in first you have no chance of getting them as they cant crash unless they pilot like a retard.

A solution would be if you use PA at all in a race you cannot be ranked or anything in that race count towards a trophy, that would sure deter the noobs :)

Just my 2cents :p

Proud pilot of the Piranha without PA! :D

leungbok
4th October 2008, 03:04 PM
I agree, pilotassisted noobs are numerous online. They generally chooses phantom races on the most technical tracks (sol2 reverse for ex.). When i first played online i was very frustrated to be beaten by those kids on tracks i didn't knew well. After that, when i learned the tracks, i had fun in beating them, by 10s or more, because the speed without PA is really higher if you don't hit the walls. But now, it becomes boring to meet a lot of these online, because there's no compétition. Hey Sl, a good feature were to disable the using of PA in phantom class. It's a good thing that newcomers have the possibility to learn the game more easily, but it's a sort of introduction, no ? It don't need to be usefull beyond rapier. I always read on wipeout's booklets that phantom's speed was the experts class. Can we call a pilotassisted guy an expert ;)? (except if he beats a time trial world's record using PA, of course:g)

Lion
4th October 2008, 03:28 PM
that is probably the best suggestion I have seen for pilot assist.
disable it across the board in phantom. love it :)

love9sick
4th October 2008, 06:08 PM
My attempt to play with the Pilot assist on was bad. I achieved far better times with it off. I think it is a feature to get people slightly used to the controls and learn how to keeping the ship straight. :nod

Axel
4th October 2008, 07:36 PM
That is a very good idea, to block it from even Rapier and above. Too many PA users having a easy time on Senbenco. God I hate that track lol.

Dogg Thang
4th October 2008, 07:49 PM
Totally agree. If pilot assist is supposed to help people into the game, it should only be available in the earliest classes. The point of training wheels is to reach a point where they come off.

JABBERJAW
6th October 2008, 04:35 AM
When I heard about the 5 percent penalty for the assist taking you away from the wall, I was very leary, despite people saying not to be. I just did some testing on sebenco climb on phantom speed, and this assist If I were to race perfectly without, and then to race a good race with it on, would be within 3 seconds, if not closer, to my perfect race time. This is way too much of a assist. I was able to drive like a douch somewhat, and come close to my good times. Pilot assist should slow you down more IMO. Either that or you might as well use an infinite autopilot. Isn't this supposed to help people get into the game, rather than allow great (yes I mean great) records using it? Lots of people were ticked about fusion's wall riding being faster than perfect turns, what do you think of this feature now, that it shows to be very fast? opinions? Maybe a download to make it a higher percentage hit to your top speed. I think if I used this feature on on hard courses, I would do better than if it was off in multiplayer (read: not moa therma)

kanar
6th October 2008, 06:43 AM
haven't practiced enough to test that, but after the incredible power of the autopilot in the turns, if the pilot assist is now a record assistant (haven't tried yet), it would be sad yes.

eLhabib
6th October 2008, 08:15 AM
As someone mentioned in another thread before - just make the damn thing be gone for Phantom, maybe even Rapier. Ever seen a guy on the Tour de France with training wheels? Of course not, because as soon as you can keep your balance, you take the things off to learn how to really ride. By the time a player hits Rapier, he really should be that far in his learning curve.

What I would really like to know: can you actually beat your non-PA times with PA?

leungbok
6th October 2008, 08:52 AM
Don't care Kanar, the autopilot is very powerfull, it's true, but very short and scarce (it's very strategic to use it at the best moment). But the pilot assist can't help you beat records, even in touching 10 walls in a race you're faster without. No, the problem to me, is the spirit we can meet online with kids (probably) using the pilotassist on the difficult tracks in phantom speed, instead of creating rooms in flash or rapier speed on the tracks they master. That's why i suggested to limitate the using of pilot assist at the rapier class (maybe flash, yes El-Habib).

G'Kyl
6th October 2008, 11:27 AM
I agree with Al in that the assist should slow you down just a little more in order to make a significant difference for pilots who might not be able to do 4 or 5 perfect laps at tracks with lots of tight corners.

But then what really bothers me is this: What if some players turn the assist on just before they reach a critical corner - go smoothly around that corner - and turn it off again? What if some of the online records are from such players? The thought alone somewhat spoils the excitement of the competition for me. There certainly are people who simply care about being first and nothing else, I can't see why that wouldn't be happening...

eLhabib
6th October 2008, 11:40 AM
You mean someone actually pausing the game just before a tight corner, going into options, then unpausing, riding the PA on the turn, and then pausing again to disable? Wow, who'd want to do that? But I guess you're right, some people really will go out of their way just to have an unfair advantage... :-

Still, it has yet to be confirmed that using the PA for example on the hairpin at Chenghou really is faster than cutting it perfectly without PA. If that's the case, something really needs to be done.

leungbok
6th October 2008, 11:46 AM
El, as you suggest it, i'm sure that a cut in a turn is significantly faster than the mid- track turn of the PA. But maybe someone must try it to be sure, G'Kyl ?

G'Kyl
6th October 2008, 12:42 PM
But maybe someone must try it to be sure, G'Kyl ?

Absolutely! I'm not saying it works that way and I certainly won't even try. It was just a thought that grew from AP not slowing you down enough.

I guess what I am saying is: Make it yet a bit slower and don't let people change it on the fly. I mean, there is probably a good chance the latter pays off in at least a couple of turns...

JABBERJAW
6th October 2008, 01:56 PM
I light tapped brakes, and the auto p assisted me the rest. I think it might be faster at sebenco reverse with those crazy turns, and I bet if used correctly it is faster at any very sharp turns.

AdrenalineBurst
6th October 2008, 02:08 PM
Remove it from the game >:D

As i stated in another post (not that anyone reads it) :p

Is that if you use pilot assist at all within a race you should not recieve any record of the race I.e. will not count towards a trophy and will not go on the leaderboard :)

Also, how the hell do these PA noobs do zones lol? thats proberly why im in top 5 for every track, cause the PA noobiekins cant get past the first zone event, lol ^^

lunar
6th October 2008, 02:39 PM
if you use pilot assist at all within a race you should not recieve any record of the race I.e. will not count towards a trophy and will not go on the leaderboard

+1. Pre-release I assumed it would be so. I`m all for pilot assist if it lets more people play and enjoy the game, but I think it should be barred from online leaderboards to whatever extent it is possible still to do this. Maybe a patch now could stop too much damage being done. There are a lot of casual gamers who deserve to enjoy the game, but there also a lot of gamers who want to play fairly seriously. If a situation arises where pilot assist becomes necessary to get the best possible times then HD will effectively be broken. As Al suggests, we don`t yet know what can be achieved with it if someone with some skill decides to see how far it can be pushed. I hope it doesn`t come to that. :(

Dogg Thang
6th October 2008, 03:02 PM
I only actually tried pilot assist for the first time last night to see what the fuss was about. I have no idea really what I was expecting but it's utterly ridiculous. You may as well not play it with assist on because it's no longer a game. Just hold X and wait for race to finish.

It shouldn't be allowed past Venom and, even then, if there is a system to ease people into the game, I'm not sure this is it because it makes it so easy that I actually think it would be harder for totally new players to move away from it. Playing a bunch of races with assist on and then taking it off would be like learning to ride a tricycle and then someone throwing you into the cockpit of a harrier jet and saying 'off you go'.

Oh, and shouldn't all this be in here? - http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5175

big_lozbowski
6th October 2008, 03:56 PM
Here is a big question... Does Pilot assist make much of a difference to lap/race times? If someone has it off and gets a perfect race line, hits boosts etc will it be that much difference?? If not then what is the problem?

Personally I am for pilot assist if it makes the learning curve for the game better. I'm sure some first time players (me included!) to the original wipeout were daunted by the difficulty and the steep learning curve.

I know how rewarding mastering the game is etc. but i think pilot assist will make the game a lot more accessable for new players.

If you can get faster times without assist then this forces players to turn assist off. it is all part of the learning curve.

JABBERJAW
6th October 2008, 04:14 PM
the problem is that it is way too close to real records, and possibly faster on tracks such as sebenco reverse, not to mention it might be faster in multiplayer (we can't race perfect all the time, with the possible exception of Arnaud).

big_lozbowski
6th October 2008, 04:20 PM
Wow I had no idea, I figured there was a gap.. :?
Hmm I'm going to do investingating tonight!! Thanks Jabberjaw!

JABBERJAW
6th October 2008, 04:25 PM
try steering somewhat correctly with it on, and tap brakes to keep the ship from doing the autopilot all over the track thing. I also tested this on phantom, not sure about other speed classes

leungbok
6th October 2008, 04:32 PM
I've just made a test. I choose a fast lap's session in racebox, sebenco climb reverse, phantom speed. I started the race with pilot assist on. After 10 laps, i made a record of 0.24.32 (perfect lap with 3 br), i paused the game and removed the pilot assist, after 5 more laps i made a 0.23.04 using the same boost and br strategy. It maybe possible to do better than 0.24.32 with pilot assist on, but i'm totally sure it's possible to do really better than 0.23.04 without. So, even if i don't like this feature (i let friends use it offline when they come home), it can't match against good racing. If someone can beat,with PA on, my 0.23.04 (Arnaud is already beyond with 0.22.86) , i will give another try without.;)

JABBERJAW
6th October 2008, 04:51 PM
Could you try pilot assist again? this time though, you should not get a perfect lap with it on, that is what slowed it down, it's ok to ride the walls on some of the turns, and faster at that. PA if you get too close slows you down, and you already slowed down with the airbrake. I am not good at this track for testing, and it sounds like you are.

leungbok
6th October 2008, 05:04 PM
I will try another attempt with PA on. I will let at least 40 laps (did i really said that ? :brickwall) and i will edit this post to give the results.
But NEVER, EVER, anyone ask me to do it again !!;)

Ok i made a 99 laps session :eek and i must admit the pilot assist can really help to do good times. I succeed a 0.23.21 at the lap 61 doing 5 or 6 br and it's pretty close of my 0.23.04 without pilot assist:?. I keep confident in the fact i can beat my record more easily without using PA. Well, i did my part in bringing concrete examples, now it's your turn, mates.;)

Lance
6th October 2008, 06:00 PM
.
A second thread was started on the same topic as ^Wipeout HD pilot assist^; this splits the discussion, may confuse the users, and causes extra work for the mods. Please do not do this again. I have merged the threads and left a two-day redirect.
.

Rapier Racer
6th October 2008, 07:25 PM
I've only used PA twice. The very first time I tried it on Phantom and it pissed me off so much I had to put it off after half a lap god it was so infuriating. Not only did it not let me cut real close to the wall but it also pushed me back out onto the track, but wait it pushed me too much apparently because then the other side kicked in too and my ship started fishtailing along like it was being piloted by a drunk.

Second was to get the trophy, man they really do give some of them away for jack ****.

What your going to get now is a new kind of player who learns all the tricks needed to fly with PA on instead of ever turning it off. Your giving these people more than a push back on track its saving them shield energy on top of that. Can you include and option for the hoster to get shot of it online please? You could put it in the same patch as the respawn off then the game would be almost perfect, apart from the fact you can also once again cut out sections of track by going over walls...

JABBERJAW
6th October 2008, 08:01 PM
thanks for those examples. It looks like it is WAY too close to real racing. Very dissapointing here. I guess we did have reason to worry, hopefully this can be corrected at some point

Axel
7th October 2008, 04:12 PM
Crap your PA time is better than my norm :(

Well I'm sure the guys at SL are looking into this.

Lance
7th October 2008, 04:16 PM
~snip~Not only did it not let me cut real close to the wall but it also pushed me back out onto the track, but wait it pushed me too much apparently because then the other side kicked in too and my ship started fishtailing along like it was being piloted by a drunk.~snip~

Shortly after HD was released, there were a few people complaining about fishtailing handling; perhaps they had ^Pilot Assist^ switched on?

JABBERJAW
7th October 2008, 07:07 PM
Yes Lance, it does that if you really cram into the wall and try to compensate.

leungbok
7th October 2008, 07:34 PM
Crap your PA time is better than my norm :(

Well I'm sure the guys at SL are looking into this.

I beat in the normal way my PA test by half a second, but the difference is already too short:?. I hope too that SL read this and do something in the near future.

Darkdrium777
7th October 2008, 11:48 PM
Interesting results leungbok. Maybe I was wrong saying all the PA users could not beat me, or someone else who is very good at Wipeout. Hmm I hope this gets fixed, if it is possible.

leungbok
7th October 2008, 11:53 PM
Yes Dark i hope that too ! It was weird to try to beat my time using the PA and also wanting to not succeed.:?

drenath
17th October 2008, 02:42 PM
I'm a complete novice when it comes to these tracks and I find the PA useful for the first few laps to learn the course without constantly being thrown from wall to wall like a pinball. I've never been able to get any golds with PA on though. Seriously I have probably ~8 hours of playtime with HD (though a lot of other WO experience) and I get better times without PA.

I think it's a great feature to prevent frustration for the complete newbie. I also agree with disabling the feature permanently on Phantom.

Asayyeah
18th October 2008, 08:17 PM
got tested it on Sol2 last week : current non-PA laptime phantom : 19.45 .
spent 10 laps PA-on and i did 21.24 : a 20 maybe done with that Pilot assist but in any way it can beat your original non-PA time if you are an experimented pilot.

pildog
19th October 2008, 10:15 AM
I would say that PA is worse than training wheels, mainly because it leads you into bad habits which become hard to break.

I had PA on for some time and now when I take it off I'm hitting every wall. I guess with some practice I'm reasonable now up to Flash speed, but Rapier...

AdrenalineBurst
22nd October 2008, 09:22 PM
We knew it would, pilot assist *cough noobs* is being abused commonly now as a way to injure None Pa's by grinding them into the wall without a care in the world of getting injured in the process.

MadMax1978
22nd October 2008, 09:26 PM
agreed I think PA should be baned from online play

AdrenalineBurst
22nd October 2008, 11:30 PM
Meh, although i'd be overjoyed if that happened they would lose to many players from what i've seen over 90% of players use it so wouldnt be to good :| then again they have the money lol? :D,

I would be happy if they gave it a bigger penalty at the very least a 10% top speed decrease, as they have serious advantages on tracks like sebanco climb and chenghou project, i've managed to master sol 2 though :p dang those long turns with air breaks lol

-------------

o_O it was merged into this thread, i only put it as a seperate thread because i felt like it didnt link to well as it was more of a rant :p

Lance
23rd October 2008, 12:05 AM
There are lOts of rants in this thread. :D

drenath
23rd October 2008, 12:24 AM
After some more time in HD I really think that PA should be disabled in Rapier+, maybe even Flash+ races. Sure if you're a fantastic/seasoned pilot, you can cruise past the PA pilots, but the rest of us who aren't elite and prefer not to PA can still get stomped by newbie PA pilots. Its pretty disheartening.

Especially on some of the twisty tracks. I'm nowhere near my initial PA runs on Sebenco and I've run that course 50+ times. PA makes it a breeze to hit speed pads and BR without crash risk. I'm going to need 500 laps on this course to beat my PA times :(

Maybe I just really suck?

Rapier Racer
23rd October 2008, 12:35 AM
Heres some more.


they have serious advantages on tracks like sebanco climb and chenghou project

Well I find thats not in fact the case the only track where pilot assist users didn't fall more than 4 seconds behind me tonight was Anulpha Pass. Now I happen to love this track and it pisses me off greatly that it IS now the joke track of the game what with it being the choice track for these assholes.

I raced tonight filtering out the games so only Phantom showed, I have to say I'm actually shocked at the lack of good players and the skill gap between people from here and then everyone else. Occasionally you'll encounter a random person thats very good, but not tonight.

Every Tournament/Single race I entered at Phantom had at least 5 players and all appeared to be using PA, one tour I entered had 6 players and 12 races, they all dropped out after 2 probably because of the 13 second gap between me and them, quite annoying.

I'm still waiting for the interesting explanation as to why the host cannot disable this bug in the lobby.

Rubix42
23rd October 2008, 06:12 AM
I got a message saying that the person I beat by 10 seconds couldn't understand how I was so fast and already had platinum. I told him to turn off the PA. All he said in return is "how did you know"

Whatever, it's hard for a PA pilot to defeat a non-PA pilot who knows what they are doing. If it means we get more Wipeout games to play in the future, I may disagree with it, but as long as I can turn it off, I'll grin through the pain.

Plus, it's really funny to watch them fishtail the entire length of the skill cut on Anulpha Pass. Makes me chuckle everytime I see it :p

MadMax1978
23rd October 2008, 08:18 AM
hahaha yeah Rubix42 that is funnie to see I think the next patch should give the online option to the host to turn off PA this will keep us loyal fans happy

"Imagin the gasp the PA'er will have when they see "your PA has been disabled at the request of the HOST" Plastered across the screen :)

leungbok
23rd October 2008, 08:53 AM
lool, i'll love this feature and will use it everytime :lol:g Of course i'll also choose tracks like sebenco or sol2 reverse, just for fun :twisted Who says "sadist" ?;)

eLhabib
23rd October 2008, 12:58 PM
I got a message saying that the person I beat by 10 seconds couldn't understand how I was so fast and already had platinum. I told him to turn off the PA. All he said in return is "how did you know"

How the hell did he get Platinum? There is no PA in Zone mode, y'know?

Sideshow
23rd October 2008, 01:50 PM
How the hell did he get Platinum? There is no PA in Zone mode, y'know?

Highlight Parser Active:

[I] [got a message saying that] [the person I beat by 10 seconds] [couldn't understand how] [I was so fast and already had platinum].

AdrenalineBurst
23rd October 2008, 01:55 PM
whats this about anulpha pass being a joke track? O_o i find that non PA's come out on top here as i can beat everyone (since everyone is PA lol >.<) By 10+ seconds by the end of lap 2 if its phantom

And @ the fishtailing, i dislike that because it means i cant pass them without being knocked off as i highlighted earlier that they dont need to worry about falling or grinder themselves when knocking over people senseless :(

eLhabib
23rd October 2008, 02:21 PM
aaah, thanks for clearing that up, Sideshow!

kingadrock311
17th December 2008, 04:39 PM
Pilot assist is garbage - why isnt there an option to disable it on online games?

Sideshow
17th December 2008, 04:59 PM
If you spam your complaints jsut a little bit more SL will disable PA across the board

kingadrock311
17th December 2008, 05:24 PM
just putting my 2 cents in about the pilot assist issues other are having with this game my good man