Jay's Speed Mod

[Task]

Herein I shall detail my mad haxxor skillz, and how I was able to mod my PSP to make my AG craft go faster. Note that no actual haxxoring is required, no animals were harmed in this process, and the opinions expressed in the, yeah, whatever, you're not reading this anymore. Go ahead to the main article below if you're still interested.

Not too long after I'd gotten my PSP and Pure, I spent some time working out how to go as fast as I could. I figured it out (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=68175&postcount=68), but I wasn't very happy with what I'd found out.
For whatever reason, it was decided in development that pitching down should make you go faster. Not just in Pure, oh no, in Pulse as well! Likely in HD too, but we can hope that saner minds have prevailed. 8 P
Anyway, here I was, wanting to go as fast as I could, but having difficulty steering while always holding forward. Then it occurred to me: I have a whole other directional input device I'm not using here! All I had to do was use the analog pad for "always pitch forward" and then I could use the d-pad for steering like usual! As a side benefit, if I needed to cancel that forward pitch (to gain altitude say) then I could pull back on the d-pad and cancel the forward pitch. The plan was solid, all I needed was to find a way to implement it! And thus, I created:

Jay's Speed Mod v1.0
It's a piece of tape.
Really, just a little piece of clear tape. Stick it over your analog nub while it's fully forward and stick it down. Go into TT mode (all starting grids are flat level) and you'll see your ship moving slowly forward without you touching the X button. If you're seeing any sideways drift in that movement, unstick and re-apply.

I shortly found two problems with this solution:
1) It tends to slowly unstick with time, so you get less and less forward pitch and eventually have to replace the speed mod. Luckily the material is highly cheap and plentiful. 8 )
2) Any other game in the world will have issues with the speed mod, so you'll have to unapply and reapply for any other game. Annoying.

So I could carry a small roll of tape with your PSP, but clearly there was a lot of room for improvement here.

Jay's Speed Mod v1.5
Two pieces of tape!
By using multiple pieces of tape, I was able to partially overcome issue 1. This solution only made issue 2 more prevalent however, and my PSP was starting to look pretty ugly in the bottom-left corner. Not a long-term solution. Something better must be had!

It wasn't too long before I had a major brainwave, and suddenly I had the perfect replacement for my now inferior speed mod version 1...

Jay's Speed Mod v2.0
By taking my high-end exacto blade to a common piece of plastic, I was able to fasion for myself a crescent-shaped little doodad that I could insert into the hole for the anlog stick, below the nub, to hold it in any particular constant position I desired! With the right raw materials (1 Bic pen cap, red because as any Orc knows, it'll be faster if it's red) and my highly-developed exacto blade skills (no, really, I've got, like, a +3 with exacto blades!) I quickly had a prototype! With some adjustments and testing, speed mod version 2 was fully operational. And a beautiful thing it was. It held my analog nub pointing full forward, I could put it in and take it out whenever I wanted, all was sweetness. Around this time I picked up Pulse and found out that while keeping up with the AI opponents was all I could do without a boost pad or a turbo normally, I was the fastest ship on the track with the speed mod installed.

This solution also displayed problems after months of usage:
1) It's a small piece of plastic that is made to be removable. It falls out easily and is lost even easier. I think the original speed mod lasted 4 months, during which I lost and re-found it 4 times. The final time I didn't re-find it. Surprising really, considering how bright red it was.
2) When it's uninstalled, what to DO with it? It's a small piece of worthless plastic to anyone but me. To me it's the product of a half hour intense labour and vital to my best times. I don't want to lose it, and I can't have it installed all the time. My first thought was to store it with the UMD in the case, but opening that case has to be done carefully or else you lose the damn thing, as I found out no less than 3 times. 8 P

So I made a new one (blue this time, the most common Bic pen cap variety) and pondered on how to improve my design. Shortly I had another idea! And this lead to the development of...

Jay's Speed Mod v2.5
I fasioned a new speed mod, this time out of black (to go with the black PSP of course, with my new modifications I figured this one would be permanent!), and this time with a bit of a "handle" on it. Drilling a hole through this little handle was difficult, but worked. Yay, 1/8" drillbits. Then, some black string through the hole, and the holder corner on my PSP, and suddenly I had attached the speed mod to the PSP!
This was the version of speed mod that I took to Vermont for the recent WWT. When Arnaud offered to put the Pulse DLC on my PSP I was certainly thrilled and handed it over quickly, and that soon lead to me having to tell the story to Isaac and Arnaud about what that silly little thing on my PSP was! 8 )
"It's my speed mod, it holds the nose down so I go faster!"
With all the excitement of the WWT, I think they forgot about it entirely though. 8 D

Anyway, this version of the speed mod definitely lasted the longest, but it's not quite the final evolution of the product. For you see, I found a problem even with this 2.5 version:
1) When uninstalled, the speed mod has an alarming tendency to catch on anything and everything possible. The string broke 3 times (and was re-tied twice) before I eventually lost it.

After much thought and consideration, and needing my damn speed mod back, I recently came up with...

Jay's Speed Mod v3.0
A somewhat smaller and "cut-down" version of speed mod 2.0, held in place with a god-damned piece of tape!

It seems there's no escaping the brilliance and simplicity of speed mod version 1! That simple piece of tape was insufficient on it's own, but combined with the elegance of a custom-built solution like speed mod version 2, the combination seems unbeatable!

So this is the current state of my speed mod, and so far it's holding up really well. I don't expect to develop the line any further, I believe it has reached the end of its own product lifecycle. With all R&D completed, I figured it was likely time to release my full findings. I have no doubt that others have come up with similar ideas/concepts/solutions (since it seemed pretty obvious at the time), but I doubt anyone else has persued it to the degree I have. 8 )

So, if you see me, and you've brought a Bic pen cap, I can fashion for you your very own Jay's Speed Mod if you want. And hopefully in the future an "even keel" will go back to being the fastest aerodynamic profile and we'll never again have need of the speed mod.

We can only hope.


Yes, I know this article would be seriously improved by pictures, but I don't have a digital camera, so we're all SOL on that one. Sorry. 8 )

[mdhay]

Err... Lol?

[Rapier Racer]

I hope this sort of **** doesn't work on HD (though it probably will) its bad enough how much of an unbelievable difference it makes already to Pure, I don't know about Pulse.

(been on the receiving end of someone else testing this out online)

In my view it's also cheating, if you can't physically hold the stick forward like this when playing, so now basically if you don't read these boards or manage to figure it out for yourself already your screwed. Brilliant! No wonder I can't be bothered playing Wipeout online anymore first custom firmware hacks now button jamming, imagine someone using both.

[RJ O'Connell]

Can't rule it out, but most of those prospective cheaters are probably going to stay away from reading this thread here because they can't discuss CFW at length, anywhere on this forum.

I do applaud Jay, though, for the time and effort he put into the various types of the Speed Mod. :D

[BARTgai]

LOL, great idea Task!

[Darkdrium777]

Custom Firmware =/= cheating but whatever. It seems this idea is pretty widespread here so I won't argue with prejudice. :/

As for the speed mod, well it's a good idea but I don't think using it to make record times or to race online is cool, since it gives you an unfair advantage over the players who do not have that mod. Everyone should have that mod so it is fair, or else don't use it. ;)

[JABBERJAW]

I figured this out after jay, and it is a bit faster. I also have a piece of crap holding the analog stick foward with a piece of tape over it. The problem with banning this is,

1) I can do this without tape the way I hold the psp. It is a pain, but in about 5 minutes I was getting similar times to using the device. If this was removed, I would be the only one able to do it, maybe this is a good idea :)

2) If you play with your thumb on the dpad, the game is not fun to play, with trying to hold that freaking thing foward all of the time, "dammit, I didn't turn left!!" sort of stuff ruins it.

3) When you hit the wall using this config, the wall sucks you into it much harder than if you ride flat, slowing you down much more. In online modes with the crappy framerate, this really can get to someone using it.



Anyway, I don't see a problem with it. The design of the game with the pitch foward making you go faster is completely stupid, because of the difficulty pitching foward with your thumb on the dpad.

[RJ O'Connell]

Certainly doesn't sound as bad as...

oh, I don't know, how about doing an aerial maneuver and gaining a brief, powerful turbo boost upon returning to the surface?

[Task]

As for the speed mod, well it's a good idea but I don't think using it to make record times or to race online is cool, since it gives you an unfair advantage over the players who do not have that mod.Well, that's kind of the point here. Who doesn't have a piece of tape? Anyone can do this, it ain't tough. So there's no unfair advantage to anyone. You'll get fewer BR opportunities, so it's a bit of a tradeoff, but I've always sucked at pulling off the BR, so it's a no-brainer for me.
Truly, it shouldn't have any positive effect on your speed at all (indeed, it should have a negative effect!), and I'm kind of hoping that pointing out how ridiculous it is to be able to get a significant speed increase with a piece of tape will stop it from showing up in future versions. 8 )

[Frances_Penfold]

Here's my $0.02, for what it is worth ;)

1. I think it is unfortunate that pitch control per se affects speed at all, and that this discussion has to happen.

2. It seems weird to ban a technique that is based so clearly on the game's natural mechanics. All good pilots use pitch control, and stupidly, the game provides a small speed advantage for nose-down flight. So where exactly does one draw the line for saying this amount of pitch control is permitted while this amount is not? As Jabberjaw points out, you can implement the technique manually if you are so inclined.

3. If there WERE to be a ban, the most natural way to implement it might be to say that pilots are only allowed to steer the ship using one method (either D-pad or nub) but not both at the same time.

4. There is a long history of controller modification for racing games outside of Wipeout. In Mario Kart Super Circuit, it was discovered that players could do zig zag mini turbos if they can switch back/forth between the L/R directions on the d-pad fast enough that the "zero" position was never registered. That's pretty hard. Then folks discovered that if you used a well-worn gamepad (e.g., on a Nintendo DS that had been used for snaking in MKDS), the technique was much easier. And then folks started mod'ing their d-pads, filing away at its base. Of course, there was disagreement about the use of ZZMTs but given that they could be performed on an unmoddified controller, where do you draw the line? It is a similar situation for what we are seeing here for Wipeout Pure/Pulse.

5. Based on a half-hour of experimenting with the speed mod (implemented with a small piece of labeling tape) I don't see obvious effect for my personal racing style. I tried the Zone ship to race Staten Park and Anulpha Pass-- tracks that I have races thousands of time for lap records-- using the ghost for my top lap time as a comparison. I see no difference, though it is possible that there is a small one that is statistical in nature, with many laps needed to be run to see the effect. On the other hand, I use a lot of pitch control and side shift in my racing, so your mileage may vary :)

6. I will be interested to see what the very top racers experience when using the technique-- how much does it help them?

[RJ O'Connell]

I'm still competent without using pitch control, and for me it doesn't work as well. The steering absolutely shits out because of the bass-ackwards pitch mechanics this game has compared to WipEout-WO3. Instead of turning harder, you end up going slightly faster into the wall!

[lunar]

Well just for the record, and so nobody thinks I`m attacking them, I don`t think that having cfw in itself is cheating, and I don`t think this mod in itself is cheating. But I do think it means that comparing times on Pure and Pulse is becoming pointless, now that there are two fairly easy mods to increase speed. Arena challenges, Xlink with known and trusted friends, and the euro pure tables can still be "no-mods" clean competition, but apart from that Pure and Pulse are pretty broken for competition, imo. Doesn`t make them bad games, Pure is a brilliant game, but there comes a point when it is just too confusing to be able to compare and assess times and performances anymore. This is what happened to Fusion and it`s what I feel about Pure and Pulse now.

I don`t think the tape-mod could or should be banned. I agree with Al`s and Frances` reasons for this. A ban would not enforcable. It`s just a shame that Pure has this feature to its "physics" or whatever you call it.

[Darkdrium777]

I also agree with the fact that pitch down to increase speed makes no sense, but in a real competition (Any type of competition), the players have to be able to perform without any exterior aid, using only their talents and abilities to the fullest. IMO this mod classifies as "exterior aid" which is why I don't think it should be used at all.
Sure, everyone has a piece of tape, but the game isn't supposed to be played with that piece of tape on, or that modded controller. I agree that everyone else that post their records on Wipeout Game might not have the idea of being fair (Look at the cheaters), but here we can talk to each other and agree to some standards of what is fair and what is not. And in my opinion this mod is not fair simply because it's not you that's pitching down, but a piece of tape.
I don't know if my point is clear enough, if it is not please excuse me because my main language is French, but I think that this mod, while a good idea to be able to pitch down without hurting your thumb, accounts for the laziness and the inability to do it yourself when you use that mod.
Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but that's personally what I believe. I'm not calling you lazy or anything Jay, I'm just discussing my ideas on why it should not be used at all if you will want to enter times on these tables here at WipeoutZone, just for the same kind of reasons Custom Firmware users are not allowed to post times here (Which is why I don't post.)

EDIT: Just to make it a bit clearer: if anyone can have a piece of tape, anyone can have custom firmware. Nowadays it is really easy to get it. This is kinda like "re-using" you argument, and I hope you see where the flaw is.

[RJ O'Connell]

There are some CFW users with Pure and Pulse times on this site, who I won't specifically name. The difference is they don't exploit the game with it and post ridiculous times (i.e. 30 seconds to do 5 laps).

Aaaaanyway, back on topic, please...

[AnErare]

I've tried the mod myself and absolutely enjoy the way the altered pitch makes the ships stick more to the track :> This is really noticeable in zone mode at very high speeds; I've had a great laugh at the altered behaviour of the ship when it takes off :D

I do though agree with Darkdrium.. If one can pull this off by means of manual application and it improves their performance that's really nice, but if it is used with means of "exterior-aid" as he called it I think it is fundamentally faulty.

[Task]

Yeah, I actually much prefer how the craft stick to the track more with the pitch always down. Definitely not everyone's way to fly (I'm wondering if anyone's going to use the speed mod to always pitch back? Fly!) but it suits my style of racing well.
I haven't tried it in Zone though, that's an interesting observation.


if anyone can have a piece of tape, anyone can have custom firmware. Nowadays it is really easy to get it. This is kinda like "re-using" you argument, and I hope you see where the flaw is.Good post Darkdrium, very well thought out, I like your line of reasoning.
However, the flaw is that I don't _personally_ have anything against CFW or times achieved on it. If I was pro one and anti the other, then yeah, I'd see the definite issue there, but I'm pretty much indifferent to both. With, without, whatever. I just like to race! 8 )
So I'm on one side of the fence and you're on the other.
No problem with that, it's a pretty fine line, we'll have lots of people on one side or the other.

Looks like we're all in agreement on what I'd call the most important point though: No way should pitch control grant a speed boost.

And I'm pretty happy about that.

[JABBERJAW]

I guess the main point i have to offer is I agree with Jay. Also, the game is just NOT fun to play trying to hold the stupid dpad up all the time (which is required for good times). A piece of tape is all it takes for most people, and some won't even like it because of the wall gripping your ship.

[Frances_Penfold]

So how much of a difference do you guys think the mod really makes? I raced several tracks with a ghost and saw no obvious effect.

I understand we all fly a bit differently, use different ships and favor different tracks, so maybe I am the odd one out?

I would really like to hear what Asayyeah and Mad-Ice have to say about this, they dominate at Pure/Pulse time trials and would seem to be in the best place to speculate about its effects on actual race/lap times :)

[Darkdrium777]

I think that pitch control has lost all it's meaning now with this speed increase thing. Before you had to align the ship with the track, if you had a jump that landed on an upward piece of track you had to pitch up to prevent the ship from hitting the track floor. Now, even if you have that situation you can pitch down all you want, the stiffness of the anti-grav "cushion" will make sure you don't hit the track. :/

[Task]

Yes, absolutely. It used to be a tool in the hands of the highly skilled, now it's just ridiculous.

Frances: The difference it makes, I think would be something like "7 kph". So at Vector speeds, it's a huge difference, and at Phantom it's very small. I haven't done any serious testing, I just know that it's a slight speed increase, more noticable at the lower speed classes. It's not going to win many races for you, but it'll definitely help lower your TT records a couple tenths.

[rdmx]

Fact: A nosed down AG-Sys in Phantom has a higher top speed than a non-nosed down Piranha (something like 800 vs. 793):)

[kanar]

Hi,


I can give facts too lol : (I used to play with the ugly stick before that tip, I'm now obliged to go back to zero in order to master the d-pad)
I've just played a bunch of hours (PULSE) (phantom)(speed lap)
platinum rush white : 19:67 (-0.03)
moa therma : 22:63 (-0.30)
basilico white 16:27 (-0.30)
...amphi white just fell! 23:52, -0.06...
Now ALL my ghosts are really afraid of the speed mod gah can't stop :robot
This tip is dope. It's a FAIR TT lover tip. THE HANDLING IS AWESOME compared to my f----n' stick experience. No more bizarre landing after a jump (hey, that's ok, it's anti-gravity guys!), & I don't fear track borders anymore! In the real world, formula 1 got computers to help the pilot, we have Jay's speed mod technology for pure/pulse. HUGE Thanks for that, I'm now entering into a new era of TT (delayed by the d-pad learning):?

[JABBERJAW]

Kanar, if you wanted to use the stick you could tape down the dpad instead

[Task]

Indeed.
In classic "over engineered" style, I'd suggest a c-clamp. Clamp that d-pad down!
It'd be a lot more precise than the analog stick speed mod, no possibility of getting a bit of right or left with your forward pitch. 8 )

[kanar]

Guys I really don't know if it's a good idea. I already tried to clamp down the d-pad few days ago, but I wasn't happy with the result. I'm done with that stick. I really noticed a nice difference, d-pad control is better for me. After just one day of TT, I'm running at the same speed as my records. I just need time to master this new & great experience : more perfect laps mmm:robot

To Task : (You mean d-pad locked down+stick locked down, while I'm playing with d-pad directions? no it's impossible lol) For now, I noticed the direction is kind of locked yeah, but I managed to put all my BR on my favorite tracks. More, I didn't have any problems at platinum rush white too, although it's a tortuous track. I'll probably finish my night on tech de ra now... speed...TT...music...

[Medusa]

LOL, I enjoyed the read, Jay. It takes true dedication to keep working at a tiny, finicky mod like that!

I have to say, though, that I personally don't see this as a true "mod" or anything that should be banned. As was mentioned, everyone has tape, and if they don't want to try it, then that's fine. I would think putting scotch tape over a button or shoving bits of plastic behind the nub is a very far cry from installing custom firmware which is directly and obviously condemned by the PSP's manufacturer. (Not to mention the kind of dedication necessary to race all the time with the nose down. Ick. You can have it!)

Calling for a ban on "button-hold-down" sounds rather like a call for a ban on NeGcons or other controller versions - ridiculous! But that's my two cents, which isn't worth much compared to some other currencies in the world atm.:g

[Rapier Racer]

Few things here:

First I'll make it clear that I still don't like it. I used a little piece of paper cut and folded to size ain't no sticky tape going on my PSP.

Tested it with both games at Phantom only and found the following, new records discarded, obviously.

Don't underestimate the advantage doing this will give you, its noticeable on both games after some testing.

Pure seems to benefit from it the most, I don't know why you feel it is a task to keep the nose down all the time Medusa :| theres virtually everything to gain in Pure from it. Ships are faster in general, the acceleration doesn't feel so excruciatingly painful, my ship seemed to recover quicker from weapon hits and I was breaking records across the board and ship handling was better. Also helps make landing smoother after a drop.

Pulse I'm not sure if it's more of a hassle or not, you need to either nose up or quickly correct your steering on some mag strips, lets take Moa Therma white, enter the first mag strip with the nose jammed down and the ship instantly slides down to the left and into the wall. Also feels like it makes the already twitchy mag strip handling even worse so it's overall harder to control the ship on one. Again you can see the noticeable difference it makes to the ships speed in general. Weapons also appear to have severely reduced stopping power, recovery times are quicker. Landing off jumps varies it doesn't always help.

I feel like it required more skill in order to use this on Pulse, at least with an Assegai I didn't try any other team.

[Asayyeah]

Jay, that is THE idea of the century :D
So simple so easy to use : i really don't know why i haven't got the idea myself before !
I haven't understood very well when i saw this at your flat last mai, and simply forgot it due ,like you said, to the excitation and also short trip to Toronto ( not talking about me raging through the psN store)
That is Al who opened my eyes recently ( 1 month and half ago) saying : hey Arnaud put your nose down you ll get some speed more ... i was thinking in my mind : ' geez i already know that Al for a long time before ' but he was laughing saying i really didn't understood very well... so he opened the cam for me and i watched his psp and discovered that tape inserted under the nub! Holly crap i wanna test this immediately and i used for this test the 'jay speed mod V1 simply with a tape), i loaded pure, the Big T ship, Vineta K phantom free laps : after a couple of laps i was really close from my old record ( 19.20) then 15 later i did a true perfect lap : getting all the speed pads and the 3 BR to get a 19.12 : i thought what the ****! that is not too far from my antique record and the tip is not amazingly faster : but i was wrong ! i noticed the tape moved itself under the nub to his normal position (center) : so thx to the tip to let me beat 'regularly my old record of Vineta) but i insisted with the tip on ( put again the tape in the forward position) and get below 19.00 !! easily !! 18.92 was my result with 2 BP missing and one missing BR : now estimated laptime could be located around 18.70: that means 4 tenths difference and one the full racetime 2 sec ( possible under 1.40.00 is doable now)
On Pulse the difference is less visible but still ( i already beat my racetime SR & TT )
The gameplay is awesome with that tip on : like the others alredy mentionned : it gaves you a so smooth feeling when racign : your ship reacts faster and imo( in contrario to Al , you are not glued anymore into the walls : you hit the wall , your speed is reducing but you don't stay like a big piece of :turd during a long time. It gaves you also a more Wipeout feeling because of the less BR opportunities ! i like very much that point.
Like Jay already said everyone can use this tip : it's easy to do and not cost a fortune.
To resume i like the tip , i don't feel it's cheating : it won't turn a bad player to an extrem skillz one, but will give you a really new way discovering Pure and Pulse.


Truly, it shouldn't have any positive effect on your speed at all (indeed, it should have a negative effect!), and I'm kind of hoping that pointing out how ridiculous it is to be able to get a significant speed increase with a piece of tape will stop it from showing up in future versions. 8 )

I am with you on this : if SL can read that maybe they have time to counterbalance that tip : that is an easy way : no speed added on flat section , speed added with pitch forward ( nose down) into a descent and pitch down ( nose up) into a uphill : in that condition if you use the tip you gonna see your speed reducing on flat section and dramatically suffer if you climb a hill. Simple solution but will it be easy to implement???

[Rapier Racer]

You have to remember that HD is going to be a totally different beast, it has motion sensing steering available doesn't it? Essentially making this technique all the more 'legal' if you like since you'll probably be able to use the tilt function simultaneously with the d-pad or sticks, theres no reason to think it won't work... unless pressing d-pad buttons overrides and cuts out tilt steering.

For the record I'm not convinced Sixaxis control will ever be usable at Phantom!

We'll just have to wait and see how much if any HD's physics have changed from Pure and Pulse.

[Mad-Ice]

Before I even tried the tip, my first reaction to the tip was: It isn´t fair and the game should not be played like that!

Before I even tried the tip, my second reaction was: Now I understand why KANDANG is always beating me within the hour after I have beaten him.

My first reaction after using the tip with PURE was: This is how the game should be played from the beginning. The game runs so much more better with the tip on!

My first reaction after using the tip with PULSE was: exactly the same reaction as playing PURE.



Just to be clear; all the records made by me on the PURE tables are done without the tip! My new records on the PULSE tables are done with tip on.

I have done a lot of racing without tip on with PULSE and I was able to beat KANDANG. These TT races existed of 5 laps with the first lap being exactly 1 second slower then the other 4 laps. The other 4 laps were within 0.2 seconds from each other. I have really come close to the lowest possible race times for some tracks, without using the tip. Then KANDANG beated me by a few seconds. I did not understand but now I do!

Just an example of a record made by me with using the tip on Talon´s Junction White a Time Trial Race on Phantom:

1st 0.22.83
2nd 0.21.78
3rd 0.21.67
4th 0.21.75
5th 0.21.75

Total 1.49.78

Of course there will be someone that will beat this record, but it shows that I am able to calculate the lowest possible race time for a track, give or take a few tenth, but not seconds.

This tip is about seconds and I mean a least 1 second per lap. So yes I am pro tip, it is about the fastest possible time and the nicest way to fly. The tip gives a better flow to the game.

[eLhabib]

aka the game is broken.
it's nice that the game feels much better and makes you fly faster this way, but ultimately this means that everyone who is not willing to stick some tape on his PSP is now inferior, just because he playes the game like it was originally meant to be played. I really hope this doesn't carry over to HD :(

[JABBERJAW]

this should not be in HD, but we all know it will, barring sending a letter with 10000 signatures. I am already taping my analog stick foward on my ps3 controller

[lunar]

aka the game is broken.

we can still enjoy the game in our own ways, but...... that is so true.

I think I read somewhere that HD would require you to pitch up going uphill and down going downhill, which would suggest this tip wouldn`t work. But I don`t know if that is wishful thinking on my part and I can`t recall the source if there ever was one. :?

If HD does do this they can delay it another year to take this "feature" out, I won`t care!

I do find it funny though that it took us so long to realise about this, maybe some of us didn`t really want to know it.

[Darkdrium777]

The source is 1Up, in their video, but they only said that the DualShock 3 would rumble if pitch was incorrect. That doesn't mean pitch down was taken out.

[lunar]

Thanks! At least I know I`m not completely imagining it, even if it wasn`t quite what I "remember". And I wouldn`t want to start another rumour :eek :)

[Darkdrium777]

Please obey the following rules when entering a record:

All Single Race times should attained racing against the maximum number of opponents with weapons activated.
No cheat codes should be active while attaining any record.
Times must be set on an unmodified console which is the same region as the copy of the game. (e.g. PAL PS2 and PAL game disc.)
Lap and Race records must be set with clean laps and races – times from races which you have been re-spawned in or eliminated from are invalid.

Please do not enter fake times - a lot of members put a lot of hard work into achieving their records and it would be highly unfair to displace them with inaccurate information.

Please also make sure you are updating the records for the correct game version.

That should close any discussion. If we abide by these rules set forth by Rob on the Wipeout Zone record tables, this speed mod[ification] should not be allowed.

Thank you.

[Medusa]

Heh! Good point, Darkdrium. Sometimes the best way to settle something is to remind everyone of what they already know. :g

[Frances_Penfold]

For what it is worth, I interpret that statement ("Times must be set on an unmodified console") to refer to the more typical meaning of "mod'd console", i.e., a console that has had its firmware or electronic guts altered in a manner to allow it to be hacked or otherwise manipulated in a manner unintended by the manufacturer.

I think that statement is much more an indictment against the use of custom firmware-- which we know alters the performance of the PSP hardware, sometimes in unpredictable ways-- than the use of a piece of tape to hold down the "up" button. This is coming from somebody that doesn't care for the tape down method and probably won't use it for time trials ;)

That's just my interpretation though-- maybe Foxxy can stop by and comment on this issue :)

[Medusa]

It just dawned on me that since my down button was stuck down (thereby keeping the nose of the ship up constantly) for a good portion of my Pure playing time, then a lot of my times actually would be invalid and should be deleted. Although that certainly doesn't give any advantage.

LOL!

[Frances_Penfold]

^^ OMG CHEATER!!!111!!!

http://www.wipeoutzone.com/records.php?game_id=8&mode_id=2&x=10&y=43&track_id=45&filter=unique&type_id=1&limit=50&action=display_records&sub_action=

Looks like we need to bump you from 13th to 15th place for that Anulpha Pass record :lol

(Just teasing, Medusa-- I have a bunch of ****-poor times in Wipeout Pure as well :) )

[Medusa]

Yeah, that's probably the underlying subconscious reason why I don't care too much about this so-called mod - it's not like any of my times will be threatened.;):g

[packetmon]

This is complete bullshit and I will not do it.
You can nose down manually, you know.

I'm very disappointed that I'm racing with some cheaters online.
Whatever - its like an extra challenge.
If you beat me I hope it doesn't feel that good and if I beat you I hope it makes you feel worse.

[JABBERJAW]

nosing down manually the entire race is about as fun as cleaning out a chicken coup. It plays better taped down, but I agree in the future, this should not be in the game. The ship should move fastest when perfectly parrallel to the track which is what the pitch was used for in the first place

[RJ O'Connell]

This is complete bullshit and I will not do it.
You can nose down manually, you know.

I'm very disappointed that I'm racing with some cheaters online.
Whatever - its like an extra challenge.
If you beat me I hope it doesn't feel that good and if I beat you I hope it makes you feel worse.
You can certainly hold your own online regardless. :+

[emwu23]

packetmon 100% I agree with You

[Axel]

Come on guys, this is basically a cheat no matter how you look at it. I totally agree with packetmon.

[Asayyeah]

What do you want guys : you prefer not to reveal that tip and those who used it years ago keep it for themselves and you can't explain why pilots who were racing slightly slower than you on previous wipeouts can beat you easily 15 min after you spotted a new record on Pulse. Now i can understand why.

Sorry to say that but a bad pilot won't turn into great one only by that tip ON. The gain is not so awesome. it's not like an infite turbo autopilote.

Again i find that tip stupid ( in contrario it gives the game a so much awesome feeling) but if no ones talk about that what do you think? this mess will be reproduced again for HD and later games then like Al , Jay or I said previously we want SL will let that tip useless ( reduce speed while reaching a uphill for instance).

[kaori]

I don't agree with this tip, because for me video games have to play with fingers, and only fingers.
(it's not valid for Nintendo Wii or Eye Toy or dance game. :D)

SL is nice, they let you the choice to play with D-Pad or stick, and some players do like they have three hands. An human non-genetically modified can't naturally play with the stick and D-pad at the same time. If anyone breaks his finger to push up the stick, respect, but it is more legitimate, but I would still disagree.

Do you imagine you playing Wipeout HD with a big rubber band stretched your toe to stick on your controller?

The solution for the future is to activate only the D-pad or stick, and desactive this one that not use.

Now the time displayed on wipeoutgame.com are wrong for me.

Know only that most french players and the bests don't use this tip online.

I respect the fact that this tip makes driving better, makes the game more enjoyable, but in the context of competition and rankings, we should not use it.

[RJ O'Connell]

What do you want guys : you prefer not to reveal that tip and those who used it years ago keep it for themselves and you can't explain why pilots who were racing slightly slower than you on previous wipeouts can beat you easily 15 min after you spotted a new record on Pulse. Now i can understand why.

Sorry to say that but a bad pilot won't turn into great one only by that tip ON. The gain is not so awesome. it's not like an infite turbo autopilote.

Again i find that tip stupid ( in contrario it gives the game a so much awesome feeling) but if no ones talk about that what do you think? this mess will be reproduced again for HD and later games then like Al , Jay or I said previously we want SL will let that tip useless ( reduce speed while reaching a uphill for instance).
Thank you. +1

Maybe now that SL's team is now "All Wipeout all the time" some of the other devs could suggest that the tip will be gone in future games. Ditto for barrel rolls. I hope.

[JABBERJAW]

"The solution for the future is to activate only the D-pad or stick, and desactive this one that not use."

Do you really want to play this sort of game trying to hold the stick foward all of the time? It is not fun at all trying to do this, and agree with arnaud that foward should not increase speed, that would solve the entire thing. Just to reiterate, this game sucks trying to hold that nose foward all of the time, so why not just tape it up. It actually plays better anyway. It is possible by the way to not use tape and do this, so only those people that can do this would have the advantage then, so why not let everyone use it.

On a side note, wipeout certainly was not made for a dpad, hence the entire stupid pitch foward problem, either full turn or none at all, so every time you move to the left a millimeter the ship goes all over the place

[Frances_Penfold]

I'm very disappointed that I'm racing with some cheaters online.
Whatever - its like an extra challenge.
If you beat me I hope it doesn't feel that good and if I beat you I hope it makes you feel worse.

No offense intended, Packetmon-- you are a superb Wipeout pilot-- but this seems kinda extreme!

I have no intention to implement this "mod" myself but for ****'s sake, guys, this involves a piece of tape and an intended (if unfortunate) in-game racing mechanic. This is small stuff compared to the modifications that ROUTINELY have been done to controllers in most racing games, including racing games with large online communities. Do you really think this is cheating?

Anyway-- where the hell is Rob? It would be good to have his opinion stated on this matter :)

[Flashback Jack]

..and agree with arnaud that foward should not increase speed..

Pitching down to increase (air) speed is consistent with real world aerodynamics. I personally don't take issue with the effect as it is, manually operated, but my input on this whole speed mod thing is that it makes my ship handle weirdly compared to the usual bouncy nature of the AG-SYS that I'm accustomed to, so I'm not immediately inclined to try it beyond the few laps I ran with it on.

All the while, to think that this is what's required to push my laps even harder assuming everything else falls into place, I may eventually adapt, but truth be told -- I'm not a fan of it.

- F

[Lance]

"Pitching down to increase (air) speed is consistent with real world aerodynamics."

Only if one is diving an aircraft into a sustained elevation drop. Otherwise, pitching while moving forward on a level would cause increased form drag resistance by changing the craft's attitude relative to airflow. Aircraft are designed to produce minimum air resistance and maximum velocity in level flight, so any variation from that will cause a speed loss. Once a sustained dive is established, the craft is again level relative to the airflow and additionally has the acceleration of gravity, which is what actually increases speed.

[packetmon]

Ya, its really funny Frances_Penfold.
People put thousands of laps down to place high and along come those with disrespect unbridled to post jacked times not only on wipeout-game but wipeoutzone.

Oh wait... we have to hear from Rob to see if its cheating.

With all due respect Rob, if you think this is not cheating or whatever they want to call it and allow "it" on the boards then please delete my record entries along with my account.
Make a separate record table for every mod that makes the game "play better".
I'll learn some basic french terms and join Kaori and others on the french site.

I've taken a look at some of KANDANGs times and they are plausible.
I don't know the dude so I have no idea if he is cheating.
But take for example Fort Gale White.
I've hit 24:60s on the first lap and 23:70s on subsequent laps.
Do the math - its just a matter of running all the laps right and I don't have a clue what kind of advantage an Icaras would provide because stupid whore Sony still owes me one.

[infoxicated]

It's no more cheating than re-wiring the buttons on a negcon is to assist your performance.

Linky (Martin Linklater, who was lead programmer on Pure) explained to me that it was merely a side effect of the way he'd written the anti-gravity generator. It has a downward force, and when you tip the ship forward you angle that force and it drives you forward.

I have no dice with that, because Linky attempted to give WipEout real-world based physics for the first time on a brand new platform, and for that he should be commended.

The fact that some folk have taken the slim advantage to extremes is neither here nor there - it cant be policed, so we have to rely on the honour system prevailing on a personal level - if somebody does think it's a cheat, then don't use it and bathe in the warm glow of contentment. But be prepared for the fact that not everyone will share your world view.

// is convinced we've been through this before with another game.

[RJ O'Connell]

What is "Wip3out", Alex?

[Lance]

~snip~
// is convinced we've been through this before with another game.

Hmm.... searches memory...
Quite possibly! :g

[Frances_Penfold]

Ya, its really funny Frances_Penfold.
People put thousands of laps down to place high and along come those with disrespect unbridled to post jacked times not only on wipeout-game but wipeoutzone.

Oh wait... we have to hear from Rob to see if its cheating.


Wipeout-Game is ****ed beyond all recognition due to CFW and software-based mods, so that's no fault of some small controller modification.

I apologize-- I'm not trying to make light of the situation-- I also race laps 1000's of times to get the perfect line through a course. I don't plan to use the speed mod and who knows, it may cost me some rankings.

But the effect of this speed mod is really small-- I tried it and couldn't see any noticeable effect. It's certainly much, Much, MUCH smaller an effect than the results of practice on these tracks.

I mean, look at the lap rankings in Pure-- Asayyeah and Mad-Ice sit perched at the top, generally some 0.5 to 2 seconds ahead of the nearest competitors, with no speed mod or other cheating employed. If I practice and practice and practice a given track, I can get times that are 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th place. If I want to break that barrier, I need to practice more and hit more consistent barrel rolls-- that is much more important than using the "speed mod" if you are already using some pitch control, as most of us are.

Also, no offense to our very talented pilots here, some of whom are diligent at posting times even when they haven't had a chance to refine their runs at a particular track. But the folks that have used the speed mod-- well, they aren't exactly sitting atop the charts, are they? There is no evidence that using the mod has put them at an unfair advantage.

Anyway, that is my $0.02. Here is hoping that nothing like this is a factor for Wipeout HD ;)

[Flashback Jack]

But the folks that have used the speed mod-- well, they aren't exactly sitting atop the charts, are they?

If I may:

http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=92650&postcount=30

Prior to that accomplishment, I was sitting at the top of that table for at least two months (my run was virtually flawless; a mere half second separates us). Immediately after said mod was announced, I was subsequently throttled on other tracks I held first place positions on as well. Metropia White Phantom (race) and Vertica White Phantom (race) to name two. The one thing I can tell you for certain is that after the mod was made known, there was a noticeable flurry of activity on the record tables that saw either myself or Kandang shifted out of first place positions at a rate incomparable to what happened before it.

I said before I'm not a fan of this mod, and I may not need it to secure top spots on most tracks, but if I comes down to having to adapt and use it, reluctantly I will.

- F

[Darkdrium777]

Frances: then why can't we say the same about Custom Firmware? I'm sorry folks but let's just forget the fact that Colin and Egg come over here and may not like such discussion (specially if it involves illegal activities, which I understand) for a few seconds and think about it...
Does 333Mhz really provided that much of an advantage? Like you said for the speed mod, is it the 333Mhz that makes the pilot better, or constant practise, hitting all the BRs (If you practise enough, you can get them all without 333Mhz), finding the perfect racing line, etc.?

All I'm trying to do is make you realize that you simply can't ban one and take the other. That is completely contradictory.

[RJ O'Connell]

(****, that was Wipeout Pulse)

[JABBERJAW]

Xavier, 333 is much better on single race mode, because it is so choppy. but in Time trial, in pulse, there is not much of a difference. However, One method is changing the game, the other is just changing the input.

for the people against this mod, would you rather have it that I am the only one able to do it due to my stupid idiot way of holding the psp? Or for anyone to be able to do it and be on an equal playing field? You certainly could not ban someone who could hold the psp in such a way as to hold the analog stick foward all the time, and drive with the dpad.

this is just another example however of why the physics should try to resemble the older games, so this does not happen.

Rob, were you talking about going through walls? or brake tapping?, both, something else? :)

[Darkdrium777]

Yes, I'd personally prefer if you were the only one to do it. Why? Because you are actually holding it, and not using some piece of paper (Or tape, etc.).

Also because it's funny when you drop the PSP :g

[RJ O'Connell]

From what I understand Al has the weirdest hand stucture of any man alive :eek

[Asayyeah]

Rob, were you talking about going through walls? or brake tapping?, both, something else? :)
Brake tapping ... who's got that stupid idea ?
;)

[JABBERJAW]

no more slipping xavier, tape on the leg to hold other side of the psp (woohooo).

[Frances_Penfold]

http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=92650&postcount=30

Prior to that accomplishment, I was sitting at the top of that table for at least two months (my run was virtually flawless; a mere half second separates us). Immediately after said mod was announced, I was subsequently throttled on other tracks I held first place positions on as well. Metropia White Phantom (race) and Vertica White Phantom (race) to name two. The one thing I can tell you for certain is that after the mod was made known, there was a noticeable flurry of activity on the record tables that saw either myself or Kandang shifted out of first place positions at a rate incomparable to what happened before it.


Err... truth is that I should have payed more attention to the Pulse tables before commenting on long-term effects of the mod :( Mostly I play Pure these days, which has a longer history but fewer active players. From what you describe, it does seem that the mod is having some effect for the highest ranked players at Pulse. I still doubt that it's a big deal outside of the very top ranks because there are multiple seconds separating out folks across the length of the table.


Then why can't we say the same about Custom Firmware? I'm sorry folks but let's just forget the fact that Colin and Egg come over here and may not like such discussion (specially if it involves illegal activities, which I understand) for a few seconds and think about it...
Does 333Mhz really provided that much of an advantage? Like you said for the speed mod, is it the 333Mhz that makes the pilot better, or constant practise, hitting all the BRs (If you practise enough, you can get them all without 333Mhz), finding the perfect racing line, etc.?


Just echoing what Jabberjaw said-- running at 333Mhz really changes any part of the game suffering from frame rate problems, e.g., single races, because barrel rolls are frame rate dependent. The effect on time trials is much more modest, of course. Personally, I think that modification to firmware or software is a profoundly different issue than a controller modification because the latter is something that CAN be achieved by an unaltered controller if one had the desire to do so.

In any case, the WOZ community seems to have a truce regarding the CFW/OFW issue, whereas people are really upset about using a piece of tape to hold the "up" button down. So if we are being "consistent" I would say that both should be allowed in the tables ;)

[Asayyeah]

i have talked to few members here about CFW and WZ tables : most of them think like me , we shall maybe authorize CFW into the tables, since now many psp owners are using CFW.
But it's not into my hands but Rob yes

[Mad-Ice]

First of all; my respect goes out to Flashback_Jack and his records on Talons Junction White and Metropia White (TT) made without the tip. But my question is: do you use CFW or not?

Even before this tip I was having top spots too on the record tables of Wipeout-game.com. I really would like to know if KANDANG is using this tip and CFW or not? But anyway, now that this tip is out we will never know who is using it or not. I think with so many people using CFW and maybe this tip too we will have difficulties to determine which record is made with or without CFW or with or without the tip. What I do know is: if you are using the tip, you will have the possibility to come really close to the lowest possible time. So if everyone is using this you will never have doubts whenever your records are beaten whether this person is using it or not.

[Lance]

So if everyone can cheat in the same way and they all have the will to do so, there will be a level playing field. I see.

[Frances_Penfold]

^^
Well, do you have a better solution? ;)

As an aside, I grimace a little to hear the taped-nose-tip and CFW described as cheating, I think that is an overstatement.

[xEik]

So if everyone can cheat in the same way and they all have the will to do so...
I don't have the will. I can't be bothered. Which also means I don't plan to enter my Pulse records any time soon.
Competing in the WO3 tables was fun. Even if I never flied through walls I stood a chance in many circuits.
Competing in the PSP tables doesn't sound like it is fun. It sounds like a chore. I'll simply play the games for the fun of it and forget about records.

Rant over. :(

[Darkdrium777]

So if everyone can cheat in the same way and they all have the will to do so, there will be a level playing field. I see.I'm neither for or against the approval of both. Either way I will be perfectly happy (I will still come here, regardless of the fact that I'm allowed to post records or not, as I have done from since the time I registered). The only thing I'm going for is "equal treatment". CFW and that mod provide you with a certain advantage. The real question we have to ask ourselves now is: "Should we allow the players that have one or both advantages to post records here, or are only OFW-No Mod records the way to go?" Considering the previous answer to that question regarding CFW alone, I think the answer is that OFW and No Mod is the way to go. But again that is up to Rob to decide.

I have one request however: it's that Mad_Ice removes his 'modded' times for the time being. They have sparked much controversy and I too agree with the fact that it is a bit of a low punch to Flashback_Jack who has not used this mod.

[Flashback Jack]

I have one request however: it's that Mad_Ice removes his 'modded' times for the time being.

Not necessary. I shall overcome, eventually.

- F

[lunar]

While I agree with Xeik re-the pleasures of competing on Pulse tables at the moment, I want to applaud the honesty of guys like Mad-Ice, Asa, Al and Task who openly discuss this "speed mod". These are the kind of people who make these tables work because they are more interested in fair play than glory. Mad-Ice could have just submitted his times and kept quiet about how he got them, but he didn`t. What could anyone have done about it? He would put himself in a strong position on the tables, but instead came here and discussed it openly. Keeping quiet is a good enough strategy for some, but Mad-Ice is an honest person, as is Asa. Sometimes the honest people get picked on for their honesty; that`s the way of the world. I want to thank them for discussing issues that need to be discussed, including the cfw issue.

[JABBERJAW]

Rob has already said that the tape thing was legal, so noone should have to remove their times. It has also been said the game is not supposed to be played at 333, so unless he changes his mind, that is what we can enter atm.

[lunar]

In a nutshell, that`s about it, yes :)

[phl0w]

Why don't you just use a pin? Holds better (in any direction you want the nub to point) and can easier be positioned/ removed. :nod
http://localhostr.com/files/832229/pin1.jpg
http://localhostr.com/files/183e20/pin2.jpg
http://localhostr.com/files/94d411/pin3.jpg

I'd rather not keep it in my pocket, though. :D

[Darkdrium777]

Al: But is the game supposed to be played with the tape/paper/whatever gimmick or contraption you use blocking the analog stick forward? I think not.

You are free to do as you please however, and play this game with the thing taped, just as snaking in F-Zero gives you a speed boost, just for the sake of competition. But is this really what WipEout is about? Competition for the sake of competition? Can't we just have some fun playing together, competition being second to that? This type of thing will only increase rivalries if we allow it, and do we need to be stressed when talking to each other? I think not. Here we are discussing this in a civil manner. Do you think this could happen if we had tense rivalries between each other? No.

However as I said do as you please, but I hereby announce that I will take no part in it. Should such a 'mod' be present in any way shape or form in the next conventions, put me on the list of those 'absent'. Meeting you guys is a real pleasure, but I fear that such pleasure will be destroyed for the sake of achieving the best time or coming in first...

Let me put it differently one more time, and this is I believe the real true vision I have of this game. I think that WipEout, being competitive and all that, is special because we get to meet each other, and the game should be more about pushing ourselves forward to get more out of the game, and enjoy more of the time we spend chasing ourselves furiously on the tracks. I think that all games should be fun first, and competitive second. Some people may disagree, and I respect that, but that's just how I see it. And especially with Wipeout. The conventions I think are the perfect example: they're fun; and then they're a tournament. I honestly believe it's not the way around, and I certainly hope it will never become like that.
While I'm certainly good at the game and enjoy the fact that in some places I'm in the top ten on WipEout Game, I am being honest when I say that I enjoy more the time I spend reaching this record. If you're doing records for the sake of records, I don't think it's right... Same thing with my Uncharted Platinum trophy. Yes, I am happy that I got it. But I think I enjoyed more my four playthroughs through the game than the moment I heard the small chime and saw the "You have earned a Trophy: Platinum" message. In fact I am pretty damn 110% sure I did.

[JABBERJAW]

One thing I would like to see is for people to try something before they say it is crap. The game really does play alot better this way, because you can still overide the foward motion, and you don't have to constantly hold the stick foward, which sucks playing that way. just save on a diff mem card. Jay was already using this mod at my tourney, and I do not feel like telling him to take off the tape.

seriously though, if this is not used, everyone will try and constanly hold that damn dpad foward all of the time, and we all know how much fun that is, meaning none. If it is disallowed at the tourney, I can do it anyway without tape (and no more falling off my leg!!), so it should be allowed for everyone. this also takes away some of the horror of playing wipeout with a dpad

One thing I do not get though is the argument about best times, all it does is make everyone's best time 2-5(if you never push foward) seconds faster if you just put the tape on, so it is not degrading anything, just wastes some more of your time trying for records.

On a side note about fzero snaking, that makes the game play really f'ing stupid, and it looks terrible, which is why I don't play it, especially after i watched Eric race that way. Ask him for my first reaction quote :)

[RJ O'Connell]

Can't do snaking, period. Hands not coordinated enough. Hates using super heavy ships in F-Zero GX. Needs to stop using sentence fragments.

[Lance]

Sntns frgs cn stl xprss opnyn, but more thorough and accurate articulation of one's thoughts is more often my preference. ;) :g

[Tomahawk]

I've taken some time and read through this thread. I personally think, that the WZ records tables are still working fine. If people want to use the speed mod, let them do it. To me something like this doesn't look like cheating, it's using an in-game mechanic which, as sadly and unrealisticas as it may be, is just there. And you don't have to use any tape at all to take advantage from that in-game mechanic. You can use your fingers to push the nose of your ship down the whole race, like it seems Al does by holding his PSP in some weird way (could you post a video or something, I'd really like to see what you described about holding the console in your hands a few pages earlier ;)).

Using CFW to make your PSP run at 333mhz is a whole different issue imo.


So if everyone can cheat in the same way and they all have the will to do so, there will be a level playing field. I see.

Your lightly sarcastic comment hits the spot Lance! It sounds a lot like we're talking about doping in real life sports: Why not let everyone do it? Because if you did, it wouldn't be sports anymore, but be some competition between the big pharma companies about who produces the best steriods.
The same goes for CFW, I think. This is no simple in-game mechanic and who can tell if someone is using CFW for clocking his PSP at 333mhz only? Maybe this person is using some selfmade programm which influences, say, the numbers of turbo boosts you get during a race? PSP Wipeout was not made for 333mhz, so take it with all its flaws (barrel roll bug due to framerate issues) or leave it I say. And what will some people like Rapier Racer or myself say if we'd suddenly allow CFW-times in the tables? We have never been using CFW and at least I never will.

Btw, I was talking to lunar about a similar thing more than a year ago when we all started playing Pure online with XLink Kai: Is it allowed to enter the records achieved while playing online? The tables' rules say you have to race against a fukll grid of opponents! I've never had only one stable race against more than 4 opponents on XLink Kai. So, are those records legit? Do we all have to erase our Pure records from the tables now?

For me, in the end it all comes down to this:
The Wipeoutzone records tables have been working on a system of honesty until today and they will do so in the future to come. Every pilot should decide for himself if using an intended in-game mechanic "to the max" is ok or not. Using some kind of external help, like CFW and clocking the PSP to 333mhz, should not be allowed in the tables imo.

[Lance]

In a perfect gaming world, all games would be programmed perfectly and there would be no flaws to exploit, but of course there is no such world, and we are left to either exploit the flaws or set up separate leagues on an honour system to choose not to exploit those flaws. It is a very difficult problem because different people have a different outlook on whether the absolute fastest time is important, or whether the flaws can actually be used for fun, or whether it is important to play the game as realistically as possible, or... et cetera. All competition eventually comes to this: A specific set of people agree to temporarily divide from the rest of humanity and play a specific game a specific way. The question becomes: Are there enough players who agree on that way to make playing that rule-set practical, and also satisfying to the participants.

That's what we're faced with here. And if we're only going to have one set of records and rules to make them by, then there are going to be unhappy people. If we have too many sets of rules, then the competition becomes less meaningful because many who might be the best players are in separate leagues and you may never know who's the truly the best. There is also this: Is knowing who's the best at a particular game/pastime actually important?

I know I am offering no solutions in this; I'm just trying to sum up the issues a bit.

[Xavier]

Can't do snaking, period. Hands not coordinated enough. Hates using super heavy ships in F-Zero GX. Needs to stop using sentence fragments.

LONG AND GLORIOUS HISTORY OF ABBREVIATED SENTENCES USED IN TELEGRAMS STOP
WOULD LIKE TO SHOW MODERN TXTSPK TO ORWELL STOP WOULD CHUCKLE DELIGHT
UNFORTUNATELY TIME MACHINE REQUIRED STOP END MESSAGE

:lol

Count me in with the people who fervently hope for this mod not to be required in future WO games. At the lower speeds in particular, it's really really annoying to have to hold the "up" arrow down all the time. Wouldn't a real machine be designed so that the default position is the most aerodynamic?

And, if real ships contained some lever or pedal to control the tile, I don't think real drivers would hesitate for a moment to put a brick on top of the pedal (or something similar) so that they could nose the ship down while having their hands and feet free for other activities!

[infoxicated]

i have talked to few members here about CFW and WZ tables : most of them think like me , we shall maybe authorize CFW into the tables, since now many psp owners are using CFW.
But it's not into my hands but Rob yes
The day I give my blessing to custom firmware will be the day Satan is ice skating to work. :-

This whole charade involving the interperatation of the rules for competition on this site really does sadden me. There should be no doubt about how those rules are written; no modifications of any nature.

Yes, I conceded before that it was impossible to police, but then so are most of the other forms of cheating in an honour based system. The clue is in the title - I find the honourable way to compete is to play with an unmodified console with a real version of the game, an unmodified controler, and do the best I can from there.

And a vast majority of the time it isn't good enough. I occupy exactly zero spots at the top of the tables on the site I created, but it doesn't motivate me to cheat in any shape or form; just try harder. That's what an honour based system is, to me.

WipEout 3 was ruined for me the day I found out how much easier it was to play with a NegCon. I put the NegCon back in the box and stopped going for times pretty much there and then. Still, I had to concede that it isn't cheating, because it's an official peripheral and that goes with the territory.

However, I actually cheered aloud when I learned that Brett Holland had set that ludicrous Zone mode score with a humble dual shock, because, in my view, that was about the purest way you could do it; he bought his console, the controler that goes with it, a tv and the disc. Bang. Best in the world and no **** about it.

Oggob got it - You play the game and you run the races without any modifcations to anything. That's the way I do it - that's the spirit and the motivation that led me to create this community and work so hard on the records tables.

But over time, somehow, it's become "okay" to bend the rules here and there because "everyone is doing it", or it's "necessary to get a good time."

I bet it ****ing is. I bet Ben Johnson thought it was absolutely necessary to take drugs to get the best times because, as good as he was, he wasn't good enough to beat the rest of the Olympians without it. :rolleyes:

I'm with Packetmon - the system is there, the rules are written, and if your personal measure of "honour" allows you to believe you can pick and choose when the rules apply to you, then I certainly am not going to respect you, and yet; who the hell am I to stop you?

No one, because I cant. I'm not the man or woman you see in the mirror, but maybe I'm the man you're going to look in the eye one day and say "yeah, I bent the rules because it meant more to me to be on top of the records than to preserve the integrity of what we had here at WipEoutZone."

If you think you can do that without a pang of conscience, then have at it - get taping, re-wiring, ISO-ripping and CFW'ing 'til your heart is content. But don't anyone pretend for a minute that I condone it or that it's in the spirit that this community was originally created to foster.

[RJ O'Connell]

If you were really on packetmon's side regarding this, then the Speed Mod would be in violation of the honour system too.

And I guess flaming some of our most well-respected users (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=94035&postcount=1354) would be cool too, since he's all for not cheating as well, and that totally cancels it out.

When do we change the site's name to 4chan again? :brickwall

[xEik]

The day I give my blessing to custom firmware will be the day Satan is ice skating to work. [...] don't anyone pretend for a minute that I condone it or that it's in the spirit that this community was originally created to foster.

hear! hear!

[RJ O'Connell]

Here's where I stand:

neGcon - Perfectly legal. (The mere notion that people should be made to feel guilty for using it absolutely sickens me. :- )
Turbo Scraping in WO3 - Skill move, again, should be legal.
Shortcutting in 2097/64/WO3 - See "Turbo Scraping" - you actually need to be inherently fast to do it.
CFW - Run Pure at 222 or don't post any times for it. That's as much as I want to say.
Infinite Turbo and Shield in WO3 - Hell no.
Fusion Lap Bug - See Infinite Turbo.

And this is where the Speed Mod is in a terribly grey area. It's a "console mod" but it's not a "console mod." It's a controller mod but the controller is part of the console itself.

[JABBERJAW]

so Rob, If you do not want the tape on the psp for records, just say definitively that it is not allowed and I will certainly take out the couple of times I have with that, it isn't a problem for me, and the others that have gotten times with that will take it out as well, I'm sure.

The question is this though

1) If sony comes out with firmware allowing 333 for every game, will records be allowed using 333 since it is official?

2) If certified peripherals for the psp come out that make playing the game easier, maybe like ps3 controller compatability, OR the already component cables, do you find that ok to use?


I think one of the problems causing this, is just playing wipeout with a dpad. It just really isn't very good when you add the extra speed boost holding it foward, and really not fun at all to play like that, with the ship going left and right all of the time.

Also, controllers have always been modified for the best gameplay experience, ranging from PC games to even atari controllers. Another problem is peripherals that make a gameplay experience much better(or easier)(or worse) depending on your perspective. I would argue that wipeout was made with the negcon in mind. I don't even think ridge racer one, made by namco had that support in, and wipeout might have been the first game to use it just right.

[Frances_Penfold]

For the record, I probably won't ever use the speed mod-- and certainly would not use it if the executive decision is made that it is against the rules. So I don't have much to win or loose here.

But this is a CONTROLLER modification, for ****'s sake. I have never witnessed a ban on controller mods in time trials or speed runs for other games. And Sony ITSELF has set the PSP on unstable ground because of constantly evolving firmware. Already we have seen one upgrade in processor power applied to Wipeout Pure, and as Jabberjaw points out, we may have another. I don't doubt that other features of firmware affect game performance.

I think folks are blowing this way out of proportion. Most of the times on our record tables SUCK and don't reflect hardcore dedication to obtaining the fastest laps-- mine included, for the most part. We are talking about issues that only affect the very, very tip-top of the record tables. The only people that should be concerned are the very top racers-- and even then, I think we are mostly witnessing disappointment that their particular times have been overtaken.

In any case, I think that some explicit decision needs to be reach about "Jay's speed mod" and about CFW-- to me the current situation feels like "don't ask, don't tell." That's not where we want to be IMHO.

[RJ O'Connell]

I never use "the tip" either. Why I don't do Pure time tables very often is just due to the sheer amount of tracks and speed classes, it's quite a lot to keep up with.

That's unrelated though.

[Lance]

I think Rob has already made his decision about CFW completely clear.

[Darkdrium777]

I still can't believe there's any remaining doubts after Rob's post. To me he just said no to both CFW and speed mod in that post, if you can't read that well I suggest you try harder. :brickwall

However he also said that if you think you're a smartass enough of a person, to go ahead and **** the system he put in place in the community. Just don't expect anything from him in return. :-

IMHO this is pretty clear cut. Thanks Rob for the answer, although I didn't doubt one second it wouldn't be like that according to the rules. :nod I shall stay away from the tables, I respect that.

[kanar]

Hi,

This thread makes me feel really uncomfortable now. My personal experience : I just wanted to push my speed lap times further. I was first upset (why now/so late? Why Kandang is not posting here anymore?), because I realized the competition was unfair. But I tried it (like a red bull can, like a neggie, like a coffee). I used this mod with my Piranha, & I was able to get 20:47 on –my favourite track- tech white, instead of a 20.81 (ugly stick certified). I’ve made about 10000 laps on tech white. I’ve reached the physical limits of my hands & my ship on it. I just wanted to go further. Now I feel guilty for that. I really think like Frances Penfold this mod is only effective when you know the track VERY well. And I’m not sure this mod is efficient for all the tracks. I first thought this piece of tape wasn’t a big deal. But when I saw people that I respect saying it’s cheating, I’ve changed my mind. I don’t want to play online & be treated as a cheater. I admired Packetmon huge dedication for the game, till’ he over-reacted… I really preferred Flashback response (“reluctant I will”, “I shall overcome eventually”). But now I’m sure he’s not going to try that. So that’s why I’m back with my “pure” ugly stick. I’m not happy with that, because psp handling is AWFUL (d-pad or stick) for the majority of us. My personal conclusion is : pure & pulse were designed for monkeys (Jabberjaw, no offense, I mean real monkeys, with 4 real hands). So the game must be forbidden to apes, because they have a physical advantage. (Cheetah gave me a call, she wants now to sue Sony Liverpool). Sorry it’s not funny. I’m just pissed off by the weird atmosphere here.
Anyway, I want to apologize to ALL for my white speed lap times recently posted on wo-game (except talon). I was wrong when I first thought this mod will put the competition further. That’s really not the case. I understand why.

Sorry for my bad English.
bye

[infoxicated]

neGcon - Perfectly legal. (The mere notion that people should be made to feel guilty for using it absolutely sickens me. :- )
The fact you're suggesting I'm making you feel guilty for using it doesn't surprize me at all, so spare me the hyperbole.

If you were really on packetmon's side regarding this, then the Speed Mod would be in violation of the honour system too.

And I guess flaming some of our most well-respected users (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=94035&postcount=1354) would be cool too, since he's all for not cheating as well, and that totally cancels it out.
The man lost the plot and made an outburst - I'm pretty sure Arnaud recognises that because he's done it himself, as have I on more than one occasion. It doesn't make his point any less valid because he was upset, but don't let that stop you from using it against him.

For the record, paketmon is so upset about what he said to Arnaud that he's asked me to delete his account. There's a man with a conscience.

When do we change the site's name to 4chan again? :brickwall
Why not - then you can go judging people and the worth of their comments to your heart's content.

But this is a CONTROLLER modification, for ****'s sake.
Does the piece of tape come in the box with the PSP?

Does it come in the box with the dual shock or NecGon?

No, and if a piece of tape or a rubber band does come in the packaging, then it's certainly not intended for "modding" the controller.

The way I believed it should work when I first wanted to create a community site for WipEout;

You use:


Console - as it was when you took it out of the box.
Controller - as it was when you took it out of the box.
Game - as it was when you took it out of the box.

Put them all together, play the game, and report your times with honesty and integrity, and I can see no fairer way of implementing an honour based records comparison system than that.

If there's a grey area, like the one you're suggesting Sony has brought upon us all, then it's being introduced outside the boundaries of our rules, not by them.

[Mad-Ice]

I am back to earth now! I think I got carried away just like Kanar. Also I felt like I had to prove a point against the records made by Kandang. But for me it is more important to be honest and being a part of this awesome community. Therefore I deleted all my modded times and entered my records made in the official way.

Still I am hoping to find out if Kandang is using CFW and the tip or not. Just like I am waiting on a reply from Flashback_Jack if he is using CFW or not. If I am wrong by thinking like this, then I am sorry and maybe I am more arrogant then I think I am.

Greetz Mad-Ice

[lunar]

I agree with what Mad-Ice is doing, and I think we`ve all been on a journey in this thread. I think Rob has stated this community`s values and we need to play by them.

But I do think people have discussed "allowing" various mods with the best of intentions - to create a level playing field. Almost all of us just want to compete fairly and have the outcome dependent on skill not hardware. We`re not all crazy to win at all costs, but the situation since Pulse has been released has frustrated a lot of people and we`ve been looking for the answer. Asa, Mad-Ice, RR, Tom, Al, me and many others fought the fight against cfw on the Pure tables for years. Those tables are pretty much clean as a whistle in this regard and do represent people`s achievments fairly. We need to get the Pulse tables to this level - I think that`s what we all want and it`s far more important than anything else.

But in discussing "allowing" stuff I think we`re confusing the unholy, unmoderated mess of wipeout-game with what we can achieve on Wipeout Zone where we have a forum, moderators and enforceable rules that we can use. Any fair player will do what the rules say, and those that won`t can bugger off, and I think the best thing would be a clear statement amounting to this in the rules:


Console - as it was when you took it out of the box.
Controller - as it was when you took it out of the box.
Game - as it was when you took it out of the box.



Maybe Al will destroy us with his alien hands, we`ll have to live with it or genetically modify ourselves.

Anyone playing with cfw should remove their times, and to balance this no controller mods should be used. I`ve changed my point of view many times over the course of this thread, but now I think that if this is established it`s the only way we`re going to move on to the point where we settle arguments on the track instead of the forum. I can see the logic in Al`s argument on this, but I don`t think we`re going to move on from here until we give up the idea of allowing this "mod".

I really think Xavier (Darkdrium) is setting an example to all. It was always my view that people should have to choose: you can have cfw or you can enter times here. We should stick with this. Leaving it to people`s conscience isn`t quite going to cut it, imo. And if we`re going to have zero-tolerance on cfw we should do the same for the tape-mod; it will help the keep the peace for one thing. People who don`t like it can go to wipeout-game.

This rule underpins all competition here:

"Times must be set on an unmodified console which is the same region as the copy of the game. (e.g. PAL PS2 and PAL game disc.)"

There`s no reason why we have to give this up, and an "out of the box condition" controller rule would help too. I think we will have to be willing to ask for walkthroughs and videos in Pulse on new records until the situation is settled - otherwise people are going to get frustrated again by times they feel unable to trust.

As an aside, rules that enforce standard hardware are what allow us to spot fake times. If it wasn`t for standard hardware on the "legacy" games, for example, how could the fastest players set benchmarks for what is possible and what is not? Without these benchmarks how could we spot cheaters? Allowing mods of any kind if only going to confuse things in the end and make this job harder.

[Frances_Penfold]

Does the piece of tape come in the box with the PSP?


Yep-- on the plastic sleeve holding the warrantee registration card-- some people just want to move it onto the analog nubbin :lol

In all seriousness, the problem with this argument regarding controller mods is this...


It just dawned on me that since my down button was stuck down (thereby keeping the nose of the ship up constantly) for a good portion of my Pure playing time, then a lot of my times actually would be invalid and should be deleted.

Not all controllers are born equally, and they sure as hell are altered naturally by use. Does that make Medusa's times invalid? Should she sell her PSP to the highest bidder at WOZ because it's an unmod'd controller that behaves like an outlawed mod'd one? That's why simple controller mods are almost always allowed for time trials and speed runs-- it is impossible to level the playing field. And if you try, you end up telling player X that he can't file the base of the D-pad to facilitate zig-zag mini turbos in Mario Kart Super Circuit while Player Y has effectively done this already by playing Mario Kart DS on his console... a situation that clearly isn't fair.

Not that I don't appreciate the "hard-line" approach-- I just want to point out that it's atypical even amongst sites that have TONS of very specific rules and that require pretty much everybody to document their times with videos :)

Edit--
If the decision is to very clearly outlaw CFW, I think that needs to be stated bluntly because some people don't interpret CFW as a mod. Just say it-- "All times must be set on a console running official Sony firmware-- custom firmwares are not permitted."

[RJ O'Connell]

The fact you're suggesting I'm making you feel guilty for using it doesn't surprize (sic) me at all, so spare me the hyperbole.
I was talking about everyone here who uses a neGcon regularly, not just myself.

We have our answer now. The Speed Mod is not authorised for use on the tables.

Now can we all just shut up, leave this discussion behind and go about our lives? :wall

[Asayyeah]

This discussion has gone too far away, i belong to the minority who think CFW and tip makes the game so much more enjoyable than in an original way of racing, i for one to consider playing with Dpad stick-to-the-track on old wipeouts is pretty boring, negcon and flying technique rule and make the game such awesome. That is my feeling and i am happy with that.
Now i am not stupid nor egocentric, i understand the points from the majority here (same for french site), so i will follow the lines stated by Rob : No tip = i will delete immediately after finishing this post my ntsc pure phantom goteki scores, i will also delete pulse scores ( not that i done them with cfw or tip but it's the 'cleaning'-'wiped-out' day soooo... )
Kai = gimme time to collect and print my records done through Xlink Kai ( even it's easier to race AI ships than humans : big example where the majority can be wrong thinking kai it's so easy to have top scores in SR, tsss tsss tsss) i will delete them after.

Hey! if majority starts to think flying through buildings is not allowed ( it was ok before but maybe new members will think it's not fair afterall and bla-bla-bla), think what? i am gonna also wipe my scores ( 2097/XL/W3OSE).

You look at me as an extremist, right? partially true mates but like someone mentionned it here, we are few top players who don't care about our ranking , we know what we are capable to do and that's fine with us.
So if i find time in future and courage i ll upload 'normal' scores : but as you know the games are dull without (imo) but who cares ??? ah yes only the minority i am belonging.

To conclude :

I found amazing friends here and i am glad to met them personaly in real life ( Asa world wide traveller : and i approve this message :P) i also want deeply meet those i haven't ( Lunar, Xtriko, RJO, Frances, El Habib, the aussies strong team, etc...) so my travelling quest is not finished yet but my motivation racing has lowered but again who cares. end of rant.

Btw wipeout-game and me : CFW 333 + tip on ( in order to be clear) // WZ = OFW no tip

Happy majority

[eLhabib]

They can take your records away, son, but they can never, never take your pride away.

Sorry, had to :P This thread has become way to uneasy...

On a serious side note: I've been watching this discussion from the sidelines (since I don't go about embarrassing myself by posting times), and I fear there is no solution that everyone can be happy with. If you see rules as rules, it is as Rob stated, and everything including CFW, Tape, Shortcutting, and even Xlink Kai is illegal. Don't be angry at him for enforcing those rules, it's not like he wants anyone to be excluded.
On the other hand, I take it from pro pilots like Arnaud, that (as an example) doing SR on Kai doesn't give you any benefit compared to racing the AI. Now if someone as renowned as Arnaud says that, I'll believe it. But if some new kid on the block claims the very same thing, I wouldn't trust him so easily. So we need rules to create a level playing field, and level playing field here also means in terms of credibility. How do we gain that? By cancelling out any source of doubt: *copypaste* CFW, Tape, Shortcutting, and even Xlink Kai. There you go.

So much for my 2 cents.
Hope the whole honor code here doesn't break down over a piece of tape, sheeesh!

[Flashback Jack]

I am waiting on a reply from Flashback_Jack if he is using CFW or not.

I'm loathe to even discuss such things here, fearing attack from bloodthirsty dogmatists, however, I should point out that CFW is not the sole determinant of success some make it out to be. Highly probable point in case -- by sheer number, there are likely far more CFW users situated below the top ten spots on wipeout-game.com than within it. Having said that, plausibly successful results under any firmware (modified or otherwise) is a chiefly a result of effort and experimentation, and I should hope that nobody's effort would be discounted even if they did use CFW sans-hacks, because frankly, around here it's taken on little more than faith that it provides an advantage. Pounce at your leisures.

That's the logic of it as it see it. It should be clear by my post history whether I'm for or against CFW.

Just to put my own experience into perspective, I've been hotlapping racing games since my early teens, on clean consoles as well as modified ones. I've put up world record times on a number of games and won prizes in commercially sponsored competitions. Throughout all of that, two things remained constant -- head-splitting repetition and sweat-inducing persistence. Concerning Pulse, I'm in excess of 350 hours and counting. Persistence (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10669139@N02/1213656624/), in my opinion, is the main prerequisite to success -- but we know that already. Nobody should even motion to link my or anyone's success to any one element in this gaming equation, particularly an element as static as firmware. :)

- F

[Lance]

One thing is constant in racing, no matter what set of rules is in effect: The winner is always the person or team that has the best combination of these three things: genetic superiority, the most ferocious desire to win, and the most self-disciplined dedication to achieving the goal.

Actually if you've got number two, number three will naturally follow. You will spend any amount of time and resources to gain victory.

[Asayyeah]

375 entries deleted ( ntsc pure & Pulse )

Seriously speaking and trust me guys: I will NEVER delete my scores from old wipeouts.

if Rob forces me to do this i prefer not to do it myself and leave the site.

[Tomahawk]

:rolleyes: Nobody asked you to delete your times at all Asa, be it Pure, Pulse or the older WipEouts. As far as I can follow this thread you chose to do so by yourself and I'm pretty sure Rob wouldn't force anybody to do anything concerning the tables, he said so a few pages before IIRC...

I'm fully respecting Rob's view of things concering the records tables and I must say I fully agree with it after having now read through all the posts in this thread. I also agree with eLhabib about adding to the rules section the facts that using CFW and controller- or console-modding of any kind is not allowed. I'll be deleting my Pure Euro times this weekend (since most of them were done racing online with Kai) and exchange them with times done in single player mode. I've always worked with two profiles, one for online racing and one for offline single player, so this won't be a big deal for me. All my Pure US records are from single player only, so they'll all stay where they are now.

[infoxicated]

I'm not forcing anybody to do anything.

Never have done, never will.

What I'm asking is that people participate within the spirit of the rules.

If any individial feels that this is an imposition on their freedom, then they are free to leave of their own accord.

[Xavier]

Rob, one question if I may: how about times set with the special craft only obtainable in the EU? Wipeout-game.com accepts them, something I find unfair since they separate Wipeout Pulse players into "privileged EU residents" and "second-class people in the rest of the world.

Those craft are at least as difficult to obtain for someone outside the EU as a NeGcon is for someone in it.

(Forgive me if this was debated before; I haven't been a member for that long.)

I race using "what makes the game most enjoyable" -- I'll go back to a standard controller when preparing times for competition (not that I'll ever crack the top 10 in anything). Acquiring a NeGcon was what got me back into Wipeout (and on to this board) -- it turned the original WO from a frustrating, difficult game to an extremely fun and thrilling racer. On the PSP I'd love to try the mod just for fun -- by the time my abilities have risen far enough to be in competition with the greats, I'll probably be able to drive without it.

[Lance]

My opinion: neGcon is a controller officially supported by the built-in programming and menus of Wipeout versions on the original PlayStation. Not supported in Fusion or anything after. So I think it is valid to use one on those games that support it for making record times on the consoles it was made for, but not to hack a way to use it on anything else, nor to modify it to gain an advantage over other neGcons. neGcons are available to anyone who takes the trouble to get one. It is probably hardly any more of a problem to obtain than it is to obtain the games that support it.

[lunar]

Negcons are even supported in the games` software. For me they bring the games to life, and Wipeout 1 feels like it was designed for that controller.

I`d also support a new and explicit "no custom firmware" and "no controller mods" rule. I think the times have changed and something new is needed, so it`s totally clear and it leaves no room for people to interpret the rules in their own way. Also, in the future, people may not have read this thread before they submit times and it would be easier not to have to have these arguments again!

[xEik]

Not supported in Fusion or anything after.
If my memory serves me, NegCons are supported in Fusion.

[stin]

Yes!, in NTSC version.;)

stevie:)

[Frances_Penfold]

375 entries deleted (ntsc pure & Pulse )


:(

Bloody ****ing marvelous. I am nearly done assembling a combined ranking system for Wipeout Pure + Pulse and our top competitor pulls half of his records because using a piece of tape on the controller is interpretted by some people as cheating :rolleyes:

The last thing Wipeout records need is more exclusivity. As a community, we SUCK at time trial competition-- we have so few participants and for the most parts, our records are **** compared to other franchises like Mario Kart and F-zero. I'd rather have CFW and speed mods used against me any day of the week rather than splintering our existing record system.

"Don't ask don't tell" was better :(



Happy majority

Is it really the majority? Or a few people that are pissed about their records?

[phl0w]

Yes, NeGcon is supported in Fusion. Not only recognized from the game but officially supported on the back of the box.

The way I see the whole dilemma, if you can even call something as ridiculous as the matter at hand a dilemma, is twofold:
Firstly, pitching your nose up and down is a mechanic coded into the game without abusing a glitch or something. It's not the players' fault that the PSPs shabby d-pad and hardly controllable nub are uncapable of letting you work with that mechanic in the way it was meant, i.e. pitch AND turn.
Secondly, I don't think it's as easy as many think to classifiy a console "unmodified". As the Mario Kart example showed, in the right context a used console can be interpreted as "modified". Given that my d-pad is loose from playing Street Fighter and Tekken so much that pulling off barrel rolls is never a problem (although the game wants them to be one in certain situations, while the devs had them in mind as a 100%-working mechanic- like pitching!), my console would fit into the "modified" scheme because it gives me an advantage over a brand new PSP (flaws from production not even taken into account here!).
As Asa stated, I too think that under CFW with "tip" the game plays as it should, and while CFW can easily be disallowed due to its either-or nature, i.e. being applied to a console or not with all known consequences, I don't think you can go ahead and label a stock console modified or unmodified without taking into account what was described from Francis (was it?) and my humble statement. One of the many consequences will be another wave of accusations which someone at the beginning of the thread mentioned, when he listed ways to spot a "tipper", like observing his craft whether its nose is down or not, although the game allows to do so (to a certain degree) without any aid.

[infoxicated]

On the subject of NegCons, those have never been considered cheating or disallowed.

Don't like them myself, but that's beside the point - it's an officially supported controller, so its use is fair game.

[JABBERJAW]

There have been shortcuts in all of the wipeout games through wipeout 3se, and Rob has not said these are illegal, but part of the game, maybe unwelcome, but part of the game. If they were illegal, I would remove every record since there are shortcuts on every track that give you a few seconds.

Respawning records are different, you jump off the track and respawn at the finish line, these are illegal. There are no tracks in all of the wipeouts up to wo3se that have this problem. then fusion has it (there are no records anyway), and pure and pulse don't have many shortcuts and not respawn at finish line problems, just the die in the middle of the race and the time counts problem which is not allowed here.

I will remove the pulse times this weekend, then put some up when I get back to it again.

[Asayyeah]

At least a good news : old Wipeout scores are kept into the tables and safe.

[infoxicated]

I'm loathe to even discuss such things here, fearing attack from bloodthirsty dogmatists, however, I should point out that CFW is not the sole determinant of success some make it out to be...
...Nobody should even motion to link my or anyone's success to any one element in this gaming equation, particularly an element as static as firmware. :)

- F
Ever consider a career in politics?

The man asked a straight question - I believe you can do him the courtesy of either answering it or telling him straight that you're not going to comment.

[Medusa]

Frances Penfold quote: "Not all controllers are born equally, and they sure as hell are altered naturally by use. Does that make Medusa's times invalid? Should she sell her PSP to the highest bidder at WOZ because it's an unmod'd controller that behaves like an outlawed mod'd one? That's why simple controller mods are almost always allowed for time trials and speed runs-- it is impossible to level the playing field."

Ah, it's too late for me to profit, Frances, I cleaned the sticky button ages ago, and I've already sold it anyway. Not that anyone here would be looking for a PSP to make them go slower.:lol

The thing that has always been precious to me about WipEout is that although it is impossible to level the playing field, it is possible to keep the playing field fair. The trick with that is to use a playing field where all the participants follow the same rules - the WipeoutZone.

Lunar quote: "I`d also support a new and explicit "no custom firmware" and "no controller mods" rule. I think the times have changed and something new is needed, so it`s totally clear and it leaves no room for people to interpret the rules in their own way. Also, in the future, people may not have read this thread before they submit times and it would be easier not to have to have these arguments again!"

Hear, hear.:clap:clap I agree.

This is a small community, and although I've not been here that long, I can easily guess why that's so, and why there are so few records on the site. Everyone who stays with WipeoutZone is here because they truly love the WipEout genre - more than being number one, more than beating others' times, more than bragging all over the place about how great they are - they love WipEout more than they love themselves.

Nearly everyone who's replied in this thread is really fired up about it, and with good reason. Especially the top pilots, but others too, have spent a lot of time, a lot of their life, trying to be faster in Pure and Pulse.

I have to say it is sad to see so much tension here, so I have to give my advice to everybody - Love the game, and relax! It's not such a hardship to have set rules for everyone here, is it? It's better to know how all the pilots here on the site are racing, because then we can all respect one another evenly.

Besides, the only true way to know who is the fastest is to race one another live, which is possible with Pure and Pulse, and if people want to race their way, away from the record tables, than they can.

We will see better times ahead with HD, right?

*please, SL, no more of this nose-down crap in HD*

[JABBERJAW]

"our records are **** compared to other franchises like Mario Kart and F-zero"


Have you seen the wipeout 3 tables for ntsc, and specifically pal? There are many records on this game, probably because that was the game with the initial records tables. How can it be called **** when in fzero, you can skip the entire freaking track in many races, and get stupid lap times, not to mention having to do idiotic snake technique to get good times. At least in wipeout, if you stick to the track, the most difference would be about a 6 second difference with perfect races both ways. How can it be called **** next to mario kart, where cpu assist is present, making the multiplayer unplayable, not to mention the game is so freaking easy to learn how to play, my 6 year old son can compete.

[Frances_Penfold]

Sorry Jabberjaw, I intend no offense :( Some folks like yourself, and Asayyeah, and Mad-Ice, and Flashback, and Kandang have put lots of effort into time trialing, and it shows in your records.

But as a community, Wipeout records are pretty weak. I include myself in that statement!

Ok, let's look at Wipeout 3 PAL-- for Porta Kora, there are ~50 participants, with the top 10 participants having a 2.0 second spread for Phantom.

Here's the reference:
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/records.php?game_id=3&mode_id=2&x=28&y=27&track_id=9&filter=unique&type_id=1&limit=50&action=display_records&sub_action=

Now let's compare to Mario Kart 64, let's consider Koopa Troopa Beach lap times-- there are >600 entries, and the top 10 racers are separated by just 2/10ths of a second.

Here's the reference:
http://www.mariokart64.com/test/tp2.cgi?9

MK64 is an older game, what about a more recent title like Mario Kart DS? Let's consider Cheep Cheep Beach lap times-- there are 677 entries, and the top 10 racers are again separated by 2/10ths of a second.

Here's the reference:
http://www.mariokart64.com/mkds/coursep.php?cid=5

F-zero games tend to have complex ladder systems that are harder to interpret-- still, there is clearly lots of competition for most of the games... F-zero X has >200 participants in the ladder with very small times separating players.

Here's a reference:
http://www.mrfixitonline.com/f0/viewcup.php?start=0&ladder=2&cup=1&key=lap

For sure, some Mario Kart and F-zero games have rubber-band AI, and of course Mario Kart has item handouts that favor lower ranked players. But nobody does multiplayer for competition-- everything is done with time trials where the only items are shrooms. Moreover, there are different leagues to support different styles of play (snaking, non-snaking, space-flight, PRB, NBT, short-cuts, etc.)

The level of skill shown by MK and F-zero players is crazy-- like you and Asayyeah and other top players, but there are many more participants that push each other to get amazing times.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ypYC7SRuvAc
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kuWfTH6DPxE
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_yEhEaUHDag

So yeah, I think there is a weaker tradition of time trials OVERALL for Wipeout than many other racing games-- not that we don't have some really amazing pilots but you guys are few and far between!

I'd like to see more ongoing competition in time trials because it makes the playing Wipeout more fun and more interesting. I will never be a top player (not good enough) but I enjoy fighting my way up the tables, exchanging tips with other pilots and having friendly competition. So I cringe to see people deleting their times from our tables (which was the context in which I made the "****" comment, which was clearly an overstatement!)

[eLhabib]

That's all due to the fact that Mario Kart is a game that everyone knows, and has played before, whereas wipEout, unfortunately, is not. I think relative to the number of people who actively compete in both game series, wipEout actually has a tighter competition.

[infoxicated]

I think we can take it from Flashback_Jack ignoring both myself and Mad-Ice that he is indeed using custom firmware.

I wonder why he had to dance around the issue?

^ is a rhetorical question.

[The Gracer]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Dave_Nebula/slowpoke.jpghey guys, what did i miss?

on a serious note - i dont really post records on the site, its just way too much effort for me, data entry is a pet hate of mine and blah blah blah. my times really arent that competitive anyway.

Im definitely with Rob on this - the record tables shouldnt be looked upon as some intense sort of fight for the top, it should be more about just sharing your (honest) times with everyone, regardless of the tedium of entering them all :P.

After reading throught this thread i was quite alarmed at how...ill use the word passionate...people were getting. it was.. well, alarming.

What happened to the old AG-SYS catch-cry guys?

Lets not get carried away here.

Discussion is good, but 1000 word essays that pick apart, quote and respond to every statement made in the previous post is overkill.

[JABBERJAW]

If you are going by numbers, certainly they are low in comparison, but let me get to those two games

FZER0. In the tracks where you cannot jump the entire thing, I recall (please post the site again, that would be cool) that there were a couple guys that were quite better(jimmy thai) (full race time) than everyone else, then it bunched up some. The competition is good, but on some races, it is wrecked due to flying the entire couse imo. The snake technique I find incredibly stupid, as well as hitting the outside of a speed pad to go faster (although that one isn't so bad) Having to drive like a spaz intentionally for me is not fun in the least, it requires skill to be sure, but so doesn't spitting milk out of your eye :)
So FZERO, good competition and hard to get great times, but don't want to play it due to silly move

on a side note, fzero x did not have snaking? right? If not, I would like to look at those records again


Mario Kart TTing. These records are so close imo because the game is so incredibly easy to play. I know there are special techniques, but when the game moves that slow, they become very easy to pull off.

WIPEOUT: Wipeout 3 has excellent competion, yes there is a big difference between 1 and 10, but the game is considerably harder at Phantom speed than those two other games. It is difficult to do perfect races, I don't know of to many times I have turned the system on and not hit a wall within about 15 seconds on the first try. And hitting the wall really causes a speed difference in the times (OLD GAMES). If I was to do a perfect run on Talons reach I have gotten a 1:14.7, but if I hit one time, it is at minimum a 1:16 immediately due to the high speeds being lost. In Fzero (pure and pulse as well), when you scrape a wall, it is not that much difference in you time, less than a 10th sometimes. That is why it is easier to get a pure or pulse record that is so close to the top times. Also, the addition of pitch control causing significant speed differences also adds to spread in times

Anyway, hopefully the older games get more records in them.

[Frances_Penfold]

Per my understanding, F-Zero GX had two problematic game mechanics at the highest levels of competition. First, snaking, where really heavy ships could achieve faster speeds by constant back/forth movements; and second, space-flight, where properly aimed jumps could allow you to skip sections of the track. While neither was "easy" to do it clearly affected times amongst expert players.

Snaking (F-Zero GX): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EVd6ZgsdDaU
Spaceflight (F-Zero GX): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P6vlEAhWlcU

The F-Zero community managed these problem issues by creating separate ladders for different styles of play, as shown here: http://www.mrfixitonline.com/f0/gxladderhome.php

The other F-Zero games had much fewer problems of this nature, and have always attracted a hardcore audience of really talented players. Problem is, Nintendo has essentially abandoned the franchise, leading to attrition amongst players. Moreover, F-Zero never had a committed website manager (like our dear Rob, may his name never be taken in vain) so the community bounced around between web homes. Given these realities, I think it's remarkable that the community still persists at all, much less maintain very competitive time trial ladders. You can visit the current home of the F-Zero community at Mr. Fixit Online: http://www.mrfixitonline.com/

As somebody that has participated in both Mario Kart and Wipeout time trials, I would not underestimate the challenge that karting presents-- in my opinion, Mario Kart is actually harder to play competitively than either F-Zero or Wipeout. The challenge lies in the mini-turbos. Not only do you have to maintain a good line through the track, one also must time, space and execute the mini-turbos. Moreover, the karts play quite differently. Consequently, there are a million different approaches for a given Mario Track course.

Mario Kart attracted a hard-core time trial fan-base early on, and it continues to flourish thanks to people like Alex Penev and others over at MarioKart64.com. Some of those folks are crazy dedicated, going so far as to do TAS speedruns on emulators to identify the absolutely perfect run through a course, and then try to replicate this in real-world play. It's very challenging to get high ranking times in a Mario Kart game-- I played MKDS daily for two years and probably got to ~150 out of 600 or so participants? Mario Kart tends to be very fatiguing, due to the mini-turbos, which is the main reason I stopped playing.

Mario Kart 64 and Mario Kart Super Circuit have a fair number of short cuts, some intention and some not. Competition for these games is maintained by having sanctioned and non-sanctioned shortcuts, each with different time trial ladders. Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Kart DS are much cleaner in this regard though the latter has a weird mechanic called PRB-- prolonged rocket boost-- in which the quick boost at the beginning of a race can be maintained through an entire track if you perfectly and consistently hit the mini-turbos. It's harder than hell to execute in practice.

Mario Kart 64 non-sanctioned short-cut:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hLmsi_4nkNI

Mario Kart Super Circuit permitted shortcut:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc0OGf-t_sU

PRB on MKDS:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cEHF7ued3mA

Sweet mini-turbos on Mario Kart Double Dash:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xGUi4B4c1eM&feature=related

As an aside, I would distinguish "snaking" in F-Zero (where it is clearly a manipulation of the game's physics engine) from "snaking" in Mario Kart (where it a logical extension of the core racing mechanic). The term snaking gets tossed around a lot but means different things in different games, IMHO.

Personally, I actually like Wipeout better than either F-Zero or Mario Kart. Wipeout has always had better tracks than F-Zero, and a much better sense of style. Wipeout also has continued support from Sony, plus an amazing developer that actually takes the time to post on this forum, a wonderful and thoughtful community, and, of course, Rob, who keeps everything going :)

I have tried on several occasions to get buddies from the Mario Kart and F-Zero communities to try Wipeout, because it has so much to offer. But no success so far. In any case, I am hoping that our community will grow on its own merits, and that includes a bigger and better set of records on the WOZ tables ;)



WIPEOUT: Wipeout 3 has excellent competion, yes there is a big difference between 1 and 10, but the game is considerably harder at Phantom speed than those two other games. It is difficult to do perfect races, I don't know of to many times I have turned the system on and not hit a wall within about 15 seconds on the first try. And hitting the wall really causes a speed difference in the times (OLD GAMES). If I was to do a perfect run on Talons reach I have gotten a 1:14.7, but if I hit one time, it is at minimum a 1:16 immediately due to the high speeds being lost. In Fzero (pure and pulse as well), when you scrape a wall, it is not that much difference in you time, less than a 10th sometimes. That is why it is easier to get a pure or pulse record that is so close to the top times. Also, the addition of pitch control causing significant speed differences also adds to spread in times


I had not thought about that-- I could see where that would tend to spread the times out :) Even with Wipeout Pure and Pulse, there tends to be a big jump between Asayyeah/Mad-Ice and the rest of us-- heck if I can figure out where to make up that difference in some tracks.

I think El Habib is definitely right-- the user base IS different for a Mario Kart than for a Wipeout (though probably not much different between F-zero and Wipeout), and that affects the structure of the record tables.

Perhaps a combined ranking scheme (across games) would provide motivation for folks to play the older games?

[JABBERJAW]

nice description of the fzero and mk franchise. As I watched the snaking I was more disgusted than ever :) Did you know if it was in fzero x?

I watched one of the flight tracks, and it was 8-9 second laps because the entire track was cut off except for about 5 seconds in the beginning. To be honest though, I would rather have that than snaking.

Didn't fzero x have a way to jump off of the track, and land back on at past turbo speeds?

[eLhabib]

Snaking (F-Zero GX): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EVd6ZgsdDaU
Spaceflight (F-Zero GX): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P6vlEAhWlcU

My God, I had no idea it was THAT bad. This is simply ridiculous. I have little to no respect for records established this way. Makes all discussions in this thread about exploiting the nosedown seem like peanuts in comparison.

Jeez, now I have even more reasons to laugh into the faces of wipEout-hating F-Zero fanboys. Your game SUCKS at a competitive level! :D

[JABBERJAW]

EL, I don't think it was in the older games however, like X, ds versions, or the original. Maybe Frances, or AG wolf can comment on that.


However, I just watched that spaceflight one ( I saw a different one on another post) and that was quite bad actually.

[Frances_Penfold]

To my knowledge, neither snaking nor space flight was a problem in F-Zero Maximum Velocity (GBA) nor F-Zero X (N64)-- those games can be enjoyed straight up :)

For F-Zero GX, snaking and space flight presented an initial problem, as the exploits were discovered, but eventually the community moved to create separate ladders. IMO these sorts of glitches and shortcuts are unfortunate but can easily be managed by splitting the record system and appropriate oversight. The mods simply say, "there is no snaking or flying for records in this system," and require video proof for suspect times.

In some ways, glitches/shortcuts make games more interesting because there are more than one way to play them. Some shortcuts in Mario Kart and F-Zero GX are really challenging to execute-- and some people enjoy competing for fastest times using every glitch/exploit they can find. This seems perfectly reasonable to me as long as there are separate chart systems.


My God, I had no idea it was THAT bad. This is simply ridiculous. I have little to no respect for records established this way. Makes all discussions in this thread about exploiting the nosedown seem like peanuts in comparison.


I think you are right-- Wipeout games are relatively "clean" in terms of exploits/glitches. Using tape to perform a controller mod would probably not be a big deal for the Mario Kart and F-Zero communities, as they seem pretty open to simple stuff that doesn't involve emulation or software modification. (Not saying this is good or bad, just point it out :) )

[phl0w]

F-Zero X had no snaking.

I have to agree with Francis_Penfold on the MK and F-Zero matter. I was into F-Zero X and MKDS for some time and followed the competition quite closely, although I never contributed any good times (definitely easier with Wipeout). Although one could argue that the F-Zero enginge is broken to some degree (snaking, shortcutting), those techniques never felt random. It definitely took some skill to pull those off and I honestly never thought that a time achieved through a massive shortcut -boosting-through-air-over the finish line was less deserved than the ones where you actually had to stick to the track (that oval course in F-Zero X comes to mind). FrancisPenfold is completely right about the Zone being not as good a time trialing community a many might think, although that may be the game's fault too. Let me explain why:

Let's stick with the mentioned examples (MK and F-Zero), both offer rather tight controls, designed to be played with digital input. Sure, the N64 and GC have analog-controllers available but the little threshold they offer doesn't really qualify them as analogue (much like the PSP's nub). As a consequence e.g. Mario Kart's fastest laptimes can be described pretty detailed and re-played fairly simple (doesn't equal easy!). You can brake down a lap of MK as a list of the inputs required to achieve that lap. I always liked that and missed it when I got to know WOZ.

When I first joined the Zone I searched for techniques and racing lines for Pure and was pretty surprised to find n o t h i n g. Hardly anybody, Mad-Ice being the honorable exception to this rule, describes his fastest Pure/ Pulse laps in detail, but thinks of many things required to clock a lap in Wipeout as a given. Especially with the return of digital input as the prefered controlling method for WO it's again possible (and necessary if you don't wanna lose to much speed) to steer with single inputs, and yet nobody tells how he takes corners.
It could look like this for a right turn: three quick taps on right, or 2 right-taps followed by 1 tap on the right airbrake followed by another two taps on right. Or take an airbraked corner: As soon as you pass [insert any landmark from a given track here] hit your right airbrake to initiate a slide instantly followed by 3 three taps on the right dpad while releasing the airbrake after the second tap to get your nose ready for the straight.
In MK this works wonders and you really can imagine how those at the front achieve their times. It's even possible to go through courses in theory, making a list of what you think are the inputs required to follow your theoretical new fastest line and release it for the community. As a result the whole board at MK64.com starts to time-trial your line to see in practice what times are really possible. And guess what, the resulting times are always pretty close to the ones predicted. I always found that amazing as it shows how consistent a game's mechanics are and how well suited it makes the game for competition.
The way I see it is that we as a Wipeout community lack termini technici to describe techniques that are pulled off in a certain way EVERY time what as a consequence qualifies them as a method. However, at the same time, I am often under the impression that especially with Pulse, many stuff seems rather random and can't be reproduced that easily like in F-Zero or MK. That's why I said it was partly the game's fault and why I suggested that the devs should release more detailed information on how the game processes inputs. Enough now, I'd like to get some well grounded arguments if detailed time trialing the way it's done in F-Zero or MK (described above) is possible for Pure/ Pulse?
So, to sum up: Do you think a lap of Wipeout can be reduced to a simple list of inputs and lines to follow? If not, is it because the game is too random at times?

[lunar]

very good question, Phlow. Certainly for Wipeout 1 you can and probably should break it down into descriptions like that to get good times, much like in a driving game you would know exactly where your braking and acceleration points would be on a lap of Silverstone. The Negcon steering makes it tough to do the "3 taps left" kind of breakdown, but I think you can break the course down into markers and know exactly when and where your next move is going to come, and it includes pitch control. I could write stuff like that for Wipeout 1 - but each track would be a huge essay and I`m not convinced there`s an audience :). Others could do the same on 2097 and Wip3out - but how many people would want to play 2097 for long enough to do the kind of amazing things Arnaud can do? And how many of those with the inclination would have the ability?

I think it`s tougher to describe things in minute detail on Pure and Pulse perhaps because the physics of the games tend to make the movement of the ship feel a little random and hence make every lap a little different, or at least the "real world" physics make it feel that way, but there is still an ideal lap and such a breakdown would be possible. We`ve written a few on tracks where we`ve gone mad with intense competiton - 123Klan comes to mind. Every bump of some tracks has been ruthlessly examined. Really every Wipeout game does have somebody pushing the limits, I think. We don`t have huge numbers on most games - but some of this stuff is very specialist and difficult on a game that isn`t massively popular like MK in the first place, and to get the best times on the old games really does demand a Negcon. On Pure the high level competion is there - look at the Vineta K TT tables and others. It`s not there in great numbers on Pulse yet, but it will be. Wipeout`s just not a hugely popular game, but I think the standard is very high all round - nobody is going to come along and knock chunks off the records on any game.

Generally about randomness, I think if Wipeout does have an element of it that can only be considered a good thing. It`s a test. The MK stuff is no doubt very technically tough, but it looks more like a platformer speed run in places than a racing game.

[RJ O'Connell]

This thread may be the most destructive that I've read here in my five on-and-off years of posting here. It gets two stars accordingly. In time we'll look back at this and be ashamed of ourselves and the way most of us acted. :-

The whole reason I don't do the super illegal mods like CFW? Wait for it...

I'm too lazy. I can't be bothered to follow all 50 steps and invest money in trick MS Duos and whatnot so I can put M33 on a PSP Phat.

Same with the Speed Mod - I could fetch a strip of tape out of a drawer and nail down the analog nub, but Wipeout Pure takes five years to load anyway if the game's maxed out with DLC. I can't waste any more time.

On a full-fledged console, modding is about 100x harder and not worth the effort, IMO. (Except with GameShark, but that's **** you can buy over the counter and cheating with it would just be really obvious.) That's why I enjoy WO1 competitions when they happen. Wipeout Original takes out the shortcuts, turbo scrapes, imbalance caused by superships, everything. It's really the purest form of the game you can find.

And the neGcon does to the Playstation 1 games what Logitech wheels do to driving sims like GTR and rFactor. Makes them so much more playable. But that doesn't mean you can't be fast without it - that's the beauty of the older games.

I do agree the rules are in need of an update, though if at all possible we should make the rules game-specific.

Bottom Line: I don't get bent out of shape that I'm not the fastest at every track and won't go to extreme lengths to do it - because, frankly, I don't care. I've got enough outside of WipeoutZone to keep me occupied.

[eLhabib]

Sorry to take this back once again to the Mario Kart comparison:

This may sound harsh, but a racing game where a record lap can be summed up by the inputs necessary?! That's just pathetic, and proves just how little of a real racing game MK actually is... Good luck with trying to describe a lap for even the most minimalistic of all wipEout games, the original one, by inputs. :D Pitch control alone is enough to lift it worlds above games like MK and F-Zero. (and I don't mean to sound like an MK- or F-Zero-hater, because I'm not. I like both games, especially F-Zero GX, but on a competitive level they don't even require half as much skill - and I'm talking about piloting skill, as in real-world racing line terms - as the wipEout series) <- long sentence, sorry ;)

[JABBERJAW]

agree with el habib about the skill required, tting in the older games before fusion, there is no random stuff that happens to the ship really, you can take the same line every time if you practice enough, but it is still extremely difficult to do, so if you are off to the left by an inch, you might not hit the hill right, then lose speed, and cannot get to the speed pad you needed, and it may take a few seconds to get yourself back on the right line, because it does not grip to the track. this is the cause for the time differences in my opinion. The pitch control very specifically causes this to be a much more difficult game to master than fzero, mk, and even pure and pulse, because, while they have pitch control, it doesn't affect your speed as much. It seems that it will take a while to get anywhere near the best possible times on all the wipeout games. There just seems to be so many new routes found to take, even after someone has found "the best way".

I agree with frances that fzero requires very much skill to achieve those times, I just don't like the snake look

I do not agree that MK is very difficult. It moves slow enough for over 50 year olds to eventually learn how to master it. It does not require quick skills, just acquired skills with practice (like nascar :) )

[Frances_Penfold]

The way I see it is that we as a Wipeout community lack termini technici to describe techniques that are pulled off in a certain way EVERY time what as a consequence qualifies them as a method. However, at the same time, I am often under the impression that especially with Pulse, many stuff seems rather random and can't be reproduced that easily like in F-Zero or MK.


That is an interesting point that had never occurred to me :) I suppose there are several other advantages of this sort for MK: (1) mini-turbos punctuate one's racing line, and serve as a natural reference for describing it in text form (MT-L, MT-R, MT-R, hop the barrier, MT-L, MT-R, etc.); (2) MK supports replays, making it MUCH easier for time trialers to share strategies.

As Lunar and Jabberjaw mention, another complication with Wipeout is the crazy amount of topography that exists on tracks-- plus the existence of pitch control, side shifts and airbrakes as alternate means to steer the ship. It's hard to capture such complexity in text form, I guess.


On Pure the high level competion is there - look at the Vineta K TT tables and others. It`s not there in great numbers on Pulse yet, but it will be. Wipeout`s just not a hugely popular game, but I think the standard is very high all round - nobody is going to come along and knock chunks off the records on any game.


You may be right-- but I agree with Jabberjaw that it seems unlikely. In time trialing games where there is a high level of competition with numerous players, you usually see a significant decrease in record times each and every year. If you look at MK64, a game that has played HEAVILY for more than a decade-- most world records have been set in the past several years. (For example see: http://www.mariokart64.com/kart64/archive/wr.html).

Asayyeah and Mad-Ice and Flashback and others have managed amazing times with Wipeout Pure/Pulse but I suspect all of our current records could be improved upon, in many cases significantly, if there were more wipers out there playing :)


This may sound harsh, but a racing game where a record lap can be summed up by the inputs necessary?! That's just pathetic, and proves just how little of a real racing game MK actually is...

Heh, it sounds simpler than it really is. I grant you that MK has fewer controller inputs than Wipeout but remember, there is the mini-turbo mechanic that has to be hit in the right place and the right time. Besides, when players summarize their paths it's not like they are REALLY saying how many times they are pushing the D-pad, it's a simplification that helps with transcribing their racing line into text form.



I do not agree that MK is very difficult. It moves slow enough for over 50 year olds to eventually learn how to master it. It does not require quick skills, just acquired skills with practice (like nascar :) )

OH YOU GUYS :lol

I think that you should dig up whatever version of Mario Kart you have lying around the house, pick a course and race it for an hour in time trials-- and them compare your times against those listed at Mariokart64.com. I think you will be shocked at how shitty your records are. As I mentioned before, I spent almost 2 years playing Mario Kart DS and wasn't anywhere near the top 10% for any particular course. With less effort in Wipeout Pure/Pulse I have 3rd, 4th, 5th ranked records on some courses using the ZONE ship of all things. Mario Kart is really ****ing hard to play competitively, I swear it ;)


This thread may be the most destructive that I've read here in my five on-and-off years of posting here. It gets two stars accordingly. In time we'll look back at this and be ashamed of ourselves and the way most of us acted. :-


Admittedly there has been a whole lot of stupid in this thread, and I apologize for my contributions to the stupid. At the same time, I think this thread has been helpful for discussing real issues related to Wipeout time trials and the nature of competition at WOZ. I know that I have changed my mind on issues several times in the course of things, I suspect others have sharpened their thinking as well :)

[Flashback Jack]

Just an example of a record made by me with using the tip on Talon´s Junction White a Time Trial Race on Phantom:

1st 0.22.83
2nd 0.21.78
3rd 0.21.67
4th 0.21.75
5th 0.21.75

Total 1.49.78

Of course there will be someone that will beat this record, but it shows that I am able to calculate the lowest possible race time for a track, give or take a few tenth, but not seconds.


My own test results:

Talon's Junction White (Phantom)

1st 0.22.59
2nd 0.21.95
3rd 0.21.62
4th 0.21.45
5th 0.21.60

Total 1.49.21 (AG Systems)

And it was an ugly run too with zero perfect laps.

It appears nobody who wishes to be ultimately competitive in this game will stand a chance without this pitch down thing, and that is unfortunate.

- F

[JABBERJAW]

mike the tape is now outlawed, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Any times I achieved with are are going to be erased soon (kids take up time), arnaud deleted his times as well

[mdhay]

To my knowledge, neither snaking nor space flight was a problem in F-Zero Maximum Velocity (GBA) nor F-Zero X (N64)-- those games can be enjoyed straight up :)

I did manage to skip a lot of Bianca City Beginner circuit by using that jump on the 3rd major corner.:)

[Mad-Ice]

My own test results:

Talon's Junction White (Phantom)

1st 0.22.59
2nd 0.21.95
3rd 0.21.62
4th 0.21.45
5th 0.21.60

Total 1.49.21 (AG Systems)

And it was an ugly run too with zero perfect laps.

It appears nobody who wishes to be ultimately competitive in this game will stand a chance without this pitch down thing, and that is unfortunate.

- F

I did however a few perfect laps and a very very tight race. So I, who wishes to be ultimately competitive in this game will not stand a chance without CFW and that is unfortunate! Or am I wrong Flashback_Jack!?

[Flashback Jack]

Or am I wrong Flashback_Jack!?

Probably, but who says I use custom firmware? I certainly didn't, but I have already laid out exactly what sort of time investment I've sunk into this game (probably more than anyone to date), so if I say more, I'll be repeating myself. Just know that like you, I've honed my technique and earned my keep. Couple that with a massive amount of persistence that has me running laps around a single track in three and four hour increments on average, and well -- method to the madness right there which no amount of firmware limitations would or could hold back. Quite simple really. Wipeout is pretty much the only game I play.

I set records because I don't fear the accomplishments of a Kandang or Asayyeah or Mad Ice. For me there are no barriers. I neither see them nor create them, and that's why I succeed. It's also why Packetmon, barely a few months of Pulse under his belt, will succeed as well. He is in exactly the same mindframe as I concerning belief and effort as it relates to achievement. Despite the recent fracas surrounding him, I uphold him as an up and coming champion, and on that I stand firm.

Having explained all of that previously, It's little more than mildly concerning to me that anyone would ignore the fact to home in on whether or not I'm using custom firmware, almost as if the nearly 500 hours I've dedicated to playing this game are of secondary importance. Is it?

Such impulse, man, and all this before we've even analyzed the race. Number of speed pads hit? Number of successful barrel rolls? How about why the Agsys is able to eat up corners unlike the Icaras and Piranha, both of which are rather digitally assumed to be the "fastest" ships in the game when all the while Egg has stated that, taking into consideration all characteristics, the ships are balanced? And how about the clearly established fact that "perfect" laps aren't necessarily fast laps, just as imperfect ones aren't necessarily slow? What, those things don't matter? There is logic in there and when it doubt, it's our job to dig it out. There is neither logic nor sense in ignoring the big picture, Ice.

Like I said, I'm in the wrong place to even entertain the idea of objectively discussing CFW, because there is an almost singular and unanimous viewpiont around here that it is evil, for reasons largely assumed, and likely entertained by those who've never seen it in action. To even offer a syllable of conversation on the topic is met with derision on one hand, bans on the other. Just saying. That isn't to critize either; it's simply the way the place is run and I respect that, but I do mind when I'm baited out on it, mostly on account that I care less about it than most others, so if I ignore responding to your messages, it's for a reason; I don't engage in close-ended debates on open-ended matters. No response on my part is just that -- no response. Draw all the assumptions you wish, but I should hope and trust nobody would take them to be factual.

No disrespect, but despite the question marks in my post, I honestly don't want to debate the matter with anyone, because I've -- we've done it to death.

- F

[eLhabib]

Jeez, you just don't get it, do you? Noone claims CFW to be bad. It is simply not allowed for setting records. The fact that you dance around an actual answer, wrapped up in a lot of BLAH (sorry to sound harsh here), only proves to me that you have indeed set your current records on CFW. No, we don't think it made you faster than you would be without CFW, but yes, it IS illegal for setting records. So, would you please go about and re-set your records without using CFW? Please.
Interpreting your ample statements in previous posts, that shouldn't be a problem for you, should it?

Edit: I apologize for making such a harsh post here, just felt this had to be stated loud and clear. I don't judge you in any way, I'm just saying you should consider how long-time record holders will feel about your records if you can't even give a straight answer to a simple question.

[lunar]

It's little more than mildly concerning to me that anyone would ignore the fact to home in on whether or not I'm using custom firmware, almost as if the nearly 500 hours I've dedicated to playing this game are of secondary importance. Is it?


Not at all for me, and I`ll explain why.

To go back to athletic analogies, I could start pumping myself with steroids and EPO but it is hardly going to get the world`s athletic federations in a flap if I can barely run to get a pack of ciggies, a pie and a bag of chips without getting out of breath. But if I`m a good athlete they will be concerned at my breaking the rules. You`re a good pilot, so if you used CFW it could make a big difference. It`s not a question of anyone ignoring your skills to concentrate on firmware issues, as you suggest, infact if someone is skillful it becomes more of a concern to some of us. Sure, no-one should break the rules anyway, but if you`re in 24th place, in the real world no-one is going to care.

Personally I think it gives a small but significant boost that makes a difference for top pilots. Don`t assume I haven`t done something to be able to make a little bit more than assumptions myself.

And even if it makes no difference, which is not my view but I could be wrong, El`s point stands. Aside from all the "performance issues", it would just be positive if everyone would commit to playing by the "no mods" principles we arrived at in this thread. What eL said, basically.

[Flashback Jack]

..it would just be positive if everyone would commit to playing by the "no mods" principles we arrived at in this thread.

Hence the header "test" in my original post.

I've already made the case to Al that since this mod thing has been disclosed, I think the Pulse (and Pure) tables are irretreivably tainted anyway, so I've long since abandoned entering records. With this along with all the other undisclosed variables floating around between here and the record tables, why bother even simulating fairness? Honor system or not, one man's definition of fairness isn't always the next man's, and I can say that artificially enhanced times have entered the tables here because at least one person admitted so.

I'll battle the taint on wipeout-game.com instead, with or without this speed mod as I deem necessary. If a piece of tape is what it takes to push the envelope further, so be it.

When the PS1 I ordered arrives, I might enter some records here at that point and with the knowledge that hacks are less prevalent on the larger consoles, but for me, this speed mod thing is far too much of a game changer. I'm ambivalent if not dismayed at how much of a difference it makes.

- F


----------



..you should consider how long-time record holders will feel about your records if you can't even give a straight answer to a simple question.

Not a simple question by any means, which is why I don't readily address it. To answer one way or the other is to set the stage for a cascade of assumptions to be drawn about what that answer entails. You may assume as you wish, but I won't if I can help it, and I certainly won't help you.

- F

[eLhabib]

I'll state it as straight and simple as possible:

Were some of your records on these tables set using CFW?
[]YES
[]NO

Yes, I know I am being rude now, but this is just ridiculous.

Edit: As I already said, I don't assume CFW gives you an unfair advantage. Actually, I think it doesn't make a f*cking difference at all. The only thing that matters is that it simply isn't allowed. A swimmer at the Olympics won't be faster if he wears skiing boots while swimming. Still, he won't be allowed to the tournament this way. What you have to understand is that the record tables here revolve around a code of honesty. How can your times be trusted if you can't even give an honest answer? And don't say it's irrelevant to your performance. I assume that it is indeed. However, it is relevant to your credibility.

[Flashback Jack]

Check your private messages.

- F

[RJ O'Connell]

Arnaud: Don't forget you and the rest of FFF and, well, all of WipeoutZone and Wipeout Arena members are invited to any and all Wipeout-related tourneys I host in Florence :g

[/offtopic]

[kanar]

Hi again,

First : an offtopic feeling I wanted to share with you : we should stop now with this thread. Flashback_Jack, Mad-Ice, Asa, djmaniac, kandang... 99% of the w-o game ranked guys are TRUE heroes. We are so lucky many of them are part of this community, because they are f----n' FAST. That's all. Ok here the Jedi council decided speed mod & CF are forbidden (of course I understand this decision, only the FORCE, the basics you know)... Because some confirmed & apprentice Jedi knights (like me) fell into the dark side LOL using "advanced technology" like... a piece of tape yeah. Now let me quote Elhabib HDpreview:


Default setup, IIRC, is this:

X = Accelerate
[] = Fire
O = Absorb
/\ = Look back
Select = View change
R2, L2 = Airbrakes

Furthermore, you can of course choose if you wanna use the sixaxis
- not at all
-just for pitch
- for pitch and steering

then there's some sensitivity settings and a rumble on/off, and that's it.

Well, I think we've been too far here, "maximum" pitching down is maybe the future of Wipeout, at least it's allowed in Hd. It would be great if FINALLY kandang (Mister 21.04 at Talon white with an Icaras) or Eleven GG (mister 21.00 @ outpost 7 white with a tiny feisar) could finally post here. 2 fantastic & true wipers for sure, with or without speed mod/CF. Please, don't forget : "Practice is all it takes. Lots of it". First words Flashback said to me.

[eLhabib]

Who's to say that pitch down makes you always faster in HD? I haven't really dug into this, but judging from 1up.com's preview from back in April, pitch has to be adjusted to the track (which would be AWESOME, and the way it should be actually).

[kanar]

Of course Elhabib, I really hope this speed mod was just a pure/pulse "glitch" myself. I'm sure SL developped a new anti-grav engine.

[RJ O'Connell]

Or was it AG Systems that developed the anti-gravity engines? :g

[JABBERJAW]

"but judging from 1up.com's preview from back in April, pitch has to be adjusted to the track (which would be AWESOME, and the way it should be actually)."

funny, though I need to laugh about 1up(egm). 1up(egm) gave better music to fzero x over wo64, rated it 2 points higher, also egm gave wipeout fusion 8.5's, also, egm also gave in the older days, a 9 to a late 90's madden game for innovation (seriously, even if it was a good game, the innovation should be a 1). Egm also said thatpure felt a lot like the old wipeout games. They do not have a clue. My guess, and this is just a guess, unless SL has been reading these threads about pitch when the discussion started (whicH I doubt), it should be in HD, since it is a mix of pure and pulse, although I hope it is not in myself.

[eLhabib]

I agree that EGM has been pretty uninformed in the past. However, they do have a pretty fresh team now, and I really enjoy the 1up show lately. I think they actually now wipEout pretty well - especially Shane and Ryan - I think he mentioned on the 1up show that, if you're playing with a DS3, it will rumble when the pitch is not right. That sounds pretty promising to me.

[Darkdrium777]

Indeed they did eLhabib. Hopefully 'When pitch is incorrect' means that pitch down was taken out. Or else it will rumble constantly, either because we're not pitching down when pitch down is always the right pitch, or because we are pitching down when the track is flat.

[Axel]

EGM are useless. WO64 music was the best sound quality on a cartridge PERIOD. Yes it only had 6 tracks, but racing through Qoron IV with FLUKE blazing through my speakers was pure Zen.

F-Zero X did have some catchy tunes though :P

[rdmx]

Just a quick FYI: there were 8 music tracks in WO64 :P Unless of course it differed between regions.

[JABBERJAW]

The rumble doesn't mean anything though, if the ship still goes faster :) however it looks like they were thinking about it, so we will see

[Frances_Penfold]

F-Zero X did have some catchy tunes though :P

Ewwwwwwwwww ;)

Wipeout > F-zero in general IMHO, but when it comes to music,
Wipeout >>>>> F-zero.

From a franchise perspective, F-zero must be Ninty's most retarded intellectual property this side of Starfox, heh. And that's from a long-time Nintendo gamer!

[Lance]

I bet F-Zero ships wouldn't even be able to feel nose-down inputs no matter how strong and stretchy the tape.

[phl0w]

as a matter of fact there IS nose-down in f-zero x... otherwise you'd be sent off flying on some bumps :nod

[JABBERJAW]

Only pitch down when getting into the air however, and it is not handled well. Even pure has better air flying (the feel)

[Mad-Ice]

My own test results:

Talon's Junction White (Phantom)

1st 0.22.59
2nd 0.21.95
3rd 0.21.62
4th 0.21.45
5th 0.21.60

Total 1.49.21 (AG Systems)

And it was an ugly run too with zero perfect laps.

It appears nobody who wishes to be ultimately competitive in this game will stand a chance without this pitch down thing, and that is unfortunate.

- F

I saw your record on Wipeout-game. I think you know there are more people then just me who has used this mod in the record tables. I think I am the only one who has said it out in the open that I used it on some of the tracks. Now I hope everyone will be honest about this.

[Flashback Jack]

Now I hope everyone will be honest about this.

I have no problem with that. I used the mod on a few tracks as well, but I'm not aware of anyone besides yourself and Asayyeah who has admitted to using it on the wipeout-game.com record tables. I'll also be clear in saying I don't use it online and didn't this past weekend. The mod changes the ship's handling characteristics too drastically (ship feels heavier in the corners) that it's almost not worth using it all the time.

- F

[Mad-Ice]

I am real happy with your honesty now Flashback_Jack! I know some who did use the mod, but didn't talk about it openly yet. I hope they will do in time!

[Flashback Jack]

Hope so, but that this point it probably won't make a difference, because wipeout-game.com is all about speed mod, now. :)

- F

[AnErare]

Hi guys,

I've been working with 2 profiles ever since I'd decided the ships feel too good not to use the mod. But, the results with zoning are so prefferable I went back to my default profile which I will be uploading when a nice wifi spot gets in my way, with mod'd records.

Some records on the official boards in zone mode reek too much like the mod not to use it in this way.. and still be able to really score on some tracks ;)

Cheers.

[AnErare]

I've tried something different with jaytech.

The mod I use is a spare nub cut to fit underneath the standard one, which is easy to keep around and not loose and still stays put through some heavy beating applied to the psp.

What I did is tried to improve my skills when the ships take off. By inverting the mod. The ship tends to lift off at pretty low speeds, which actually has a wicked result, especially with my much beloved zone mode :sonar

I encourage everyone using this mod to try this some time, even if it's just for a good laugh ;)

Cheers!

AnE

[ACE-FLO]

Jaytech is cheating imo - just saying!!! I never use it, and have learnt to pitch on straights and long bends manually - with my hands!!!

Corners are bloody tricky though so I leave them alone!

I consider Jaytech cheating because it requires no effort on the part of the pilot.

[Frances_Penfold]

I dunno.

To be honest, I find it a bit ridiculous that there is a WHOLE THREAD about alternate controllers to use for WOHD on the PS3 and nobody complains-- and yet the use of a small piece of tape on the PSP nub causes a huge shitstorm.

I wish some solution could be found to this because the record tables for Pulse (and to some extent Pure) are anemic, and I suspect a fair number of folks don't race because of uncertainty about the issue.

I would probably vote for creation of split tables (different tables for Jaytech vs. non-Jaytech racing) though I understand that would create additional work for Foxxy. I am pretty sure that this is the approach that would be used by other TT sites that I have participated in, if they were placed in this same situation.

[Darkdrium777]

Well, the argument about alternate controllers hasn't been opened yet.

And my point with the speed mod was that it was exterior aid, you weren't pitching down, the tape was for you.
For the alternate controller, I hardly see the exterior aid: you still have to drive your ship around the track. And NegCon functions essentially the same as the analog stick, you could be as precise as a PS3 NegCon with the analog stick if you ever practised enough :)

But sure, according to the rules of the site, which I quoted some posts back in this thread, it wouldn't be valid.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

:lol I don't understand all the fuss over JayTech. It's not insanely difficult to pitch down manually (even on the O7 hairpins). It just takes a little practice to get used to the reduced handling (more airbrakes and sideshifts needed). Also, manual pitch must be done lightly, otherwise you'll wobble about from accidentally steering.
Although I've never tried JayTech personally, I'd see it as a disadvantage if anything - does it not remove the ability to pitch up? I use pitch up quite often to get extra BRs in (especially after a weapons or wall hit).
If it does remove pitch up, then it seems to me that it's a bit like those "turbo fire" functions you used to get on some Sega Mega Drive joypads or whatever (i.e. not much use at all).;)

[Darkdrium777]

It doesn't, that's why it's an advantage.
D-Pad inputs override Analog stick inputs, so you can still pitch up with the mod attached.
It does the same in WipEout HD.
D-Pad>Analog Stick>Motion Control.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

Oh, I see. In that case, yes, it's a little unfair for players who have trouble doing manual pitch.
I'd still recommend manual pitching though, at least wherever manageable, as it provides a fair way to get faster times. And if I can learn to do it, anybody can.:lol

[Frances_Penfold]

Well, the argument about alternate controllers hasn't been opened yet.


I dunno, it seems that it's at least starting to be discussed, and that not everybody is using the default PS3 controller.

http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6366

To be clear-- I don't use jaytech and I wish it didn't exist.

But my main concern is that this issue seems to have killed interest in high-end Pure/Pulse competition. Anything that restores interest in these games is a good thing IMHO-- whether that be split charts or simply allowing it to be used, I don't really care.

I don't think there will ever be consensus on whether jaytech is legitimate or not, based on the arguments that have occurred in this thread.

My personal feeling is that the Wipeout franchise has been INCREDIBLY lucky in having relatively few controller issues and game glitches that affect competition. In F-zero and Mario Kart and Diddy Kong and many other racing games, there are very strict and complicated rules for racing styles (PRB, snaking, "free-flight"), controller modifications (mostly d-pad related) and shortcuts. There haven't been many problems of this sort for Wipeout, thank goodness :)

So my question to the WOZ is this-- what can be done to bring together the folks that WANT to use jaytech and the folks that hate the IDEA of jaytech so that everybody feels motivated to play Pulse and Pure time trials again?

[Task]

But my main concern is that this issue seems to have killed interest in high-end Pure/Pulse competition.Wait, what?
Where do you get this from?
I would imagine that HD and Fury are mostly responsible for any decline in Pure and/or Pulse racing.
I find it difficult to believe that a "pitching for speed" game mechanic is the cause of any serious reduction in player base.
The main reason I don't play Pulse is because I prefer Pure, and I've still got competition on those tables.



I don't think there will ever be consensus on whether jaytech is legitimate or not, based on the arguments that have occurred in this thread.It's not legitimate at all, consensus is not required! Decision long ago reached, case closed. I'm not sure there was much in the way of argument, mostly lots of good discussion.

I actually think that the whole "pitch forward for increased acceleration" basic concept is pretty good, it's just that there's nothing in the game to account for the increase in wind drag due to not being pitched flat in the direction of travel. Aerodynamics aren't accounted for, maybe they will be next game. 8 )

[borell]

I have never even tried this mod. I like to set my records, and to beat my old times, without it. I agree with Jay, the wipeout games for the PS3 are probably what distracts people from playing pure and pulse (well, I guess that there is still some pulse multiplayer activity).

Frances, do you want some Pure TT? How about you Jay? Anyone else? I'm in! :beer

[lunar]

I see where Frances is coming from. One reason I gave up with Pulse was because I like to play with a level playing field and Pulse has never been that for me. It was such a let down - all the hassle and complication over various issues after we had such great days with Pure. But then I never really liked Pulse either so maybe that is why I don`t play it.

With Pure we just played for the love of it - I found it impossible to play Pulse for the love of it because there was so much :turd surrounding the game. And it wasn`t as good ;)

[Task]

I'm definitely with you on that one lunar, I find Pure to just be a ton of fun, Pulse I just don't enjoy as much.

borell: I'm likely up for some Pure TT. I've mostly been attacking the SR records, so my TT records are likely very easy to beat. In that respect Pure is totally opposite from the other WO's I've enjoyed, usually I'm all over the TT and couldn't care less about the SR!

[Aeroracer]

does this speed mod thing apply to wipeout hd?

[Darkdrium777]

No. ..

[JABBERJAW]

pitch foward does not increase speed in wipeout hd. For the pulse pure, I did a little speed test on talon jct. By the time the ship hit the first wall, with a turbo start, the ship was going around 20kph faster with pitch foward than without. 45x compared to 47x. And xavier is right, the dpad overides the analog stick when you need to pitch up.

[archman]

Jabberjaw, check my thread about pitch speeds here: http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6602

It's 17kph boost, btw.

[Frances_Penfold]

Apologies for the slow response time :)


Wait, what? Where do you get this from? I would imagine that HD and Fury are mostly responsible for any decline in Pure and/or Pulse racing.

I 100% agree that WOHD has affected participation in Pure/Pulse.

IMHO, though, jaytech (achieved via human effort or tape) and 333 mHz (achieved via CFW) have really hurt the PSP Wipeout games as well. These two factors are related in that they (arguably) improve the in-game experience for racers (better framerate, ship response and handling) while requiring some simple modification to the PSP hardware. Some gamers see jaytech and 333 mHz as a "grey area" because they provide benefits that a game developer quite possibly would have included in the original release if feasible and known at the time of original release.


I guess my claim that jaytech has hurt participation in Pure/Pulse time trialing is based on three observations.


1. Posts of WOZ'ers in threads on the Pure/Pulse boards.

For an example, I would point to the aggravation expressed by pilots in learning that the PS2 version of Pulse permits jaytech.


Well, there goes the planet :bomb!! That is too bad SL did not alter this. Thanks for answering those questions El Patas.


The bad thing about it is that it means "the auto-pitch mod" will still work (I think), resulting in unfair play:frown:, El Patas. But thanks again for the info.:+

The same sentiment pops up elsewhere, for example, in a recent thread praising the brilliance of Pure


Pure is my second favourite Wipeout because it gave me such a great time playing it. So many game design decisions in it are just totally right...

Jaytech kind of broke Pure for me though. My son did aswell when he thought the UMD disc itself had to be removed from the plastic casing before being put in the PSP.


2. Removal of time records by WOZ members

Perusal of this thread and study of the Pure/Pulse time trial tables indicates that several WOZ'ers REMOVED THEIR RECORDS in response to jaytech and 333 mHz. Asayyeah alone pulled almost 500 of his records from the WOZ leaderboards-- I don't think he is included in Pulse records at all at this point.


3. Lower participation in Pure/Pulse time trial competition in comparison to WOHD, which has been on the market for less than one year

This is a very clear trend that no doubt reflects excitement that Sony has at last released a Wipeout game on a home console. The trend is so overwhelming and pervasive, however, that I suspect that it reflects the perception that competition on the PS3 is a more even playing field (i.e., no jaytech or CFW).

As an example, I would point to Metropia forward. On WOHD lap records, this track has >100 very competitive times for Phantom speeds on Connavar's record website. In contrast, in Pulse, there are only 11 lap records-- and many of the WOZ's best pilots have not submitted times, or have pulled their times.




It's not legitimate at all, consensus is not required! Decision long ago reached, case closed. I'm not sure there was much in the way of argument, mostly lots of good discussion.

It was good for Robb Foxx to express his opinion on jaytech, and "draw the line" on what he wants the record tables to represent. I know that many WOZ'ers have respected his decision (myself included) and avoided jaytech and CFW, at least for times submitted to WOZ tables.

I don't think the issue is "resolved" however because as outlined above, participation in Pure/Pulse time trialing is pretty weak at this point of time.

My sense is that nobody feels good about the situation:

1. Folks that want to use jaytech / 333 mHz and feel that they can't play Pure/Pulse in the manner that offers the best gameplay experience (and also have to endure insinuation of cheating);

2. Folks that do not want to use jaytech / 333 mHz but are suspicious that other racers are using these approaches to have a competitive advantage.

So I guess my question to Wipeout pilots is this-- what can be done to deal with jaytech (and 333 mHz) so that folks want to participate in time trialing in Pure/Pulse?

* Should we create split time trial tables, with one set of tables for no jaytech/333 mHz and another permitting jaytch/333 mHz? This is a strategy often used in other racing games with similar issues (snaking in F-zero and PRB in Mario Kart, for example).

* Should we focus on lap records at phantom speed, which may be less influenced by the performance advantage associated with jaytech / 333 mHz? In theory, laps, race and SR should be similarly effected-- but since laps are performed over and over and over to identify good lines, with the major limitation at phantom speed being to hit the perfect line and not hit walls, with no opponents to be shot by or to interfere with barrel rolls-- my guess is that lap time trialing would not be so strongly influenced. Maybe?



I like to set my records, and to beat my old times, without it.

Frances, do you want some Pure TT? How about you Jay? Anyone else? I'm in! :beer

HELL YES! :) In July I spent many hours playing Pulse, and set some new records. Now I am playing Pure, and am working on some TT'ing now. Let's do it!

P.S. One thing I should say is that in no way do I blame Jay (Task) for "jaytech," I am not picking on him at all. It was good detective work for him to identify the technique-- and if it hadn't been him, probably it would ultimately have been somebody else.

[Mad-Ice]

When the PSP came out it worked with a processor speed of 222Mhz. The first records were made that way! Around 1 year later there was a Firmware update and the PSP got a processor speed of 266 Mhz. And we all had to make new records for PURE.

Even at that time some pilots played with 333 Mhz and could not enter times here. Pulse came out together with the wipeout-game site. From that moment on there was a big split in the Wipeout-community. Pilots that stayed true to Wipeoutzone and the gentlemens agreement and pilots that played with CFW and later on also with Jaytech.

As you can see now there are so many names in the recordtables at wipeout-game and we know so many of them and why did they not put in their times right here, where they belong? Wipeoutzone is the first and most complete place there is for a Wipeout pilot.

Maybe because pilots feel that they have to do all the records twice like me. I also like the search for fastest possible times. CFW is one step too far for me, but I tested Jaytech on few tracks and uploaded them too on Wipeout-game.

Still, I do not like the split in the community and I wish there was a level playing field for Pure and Pulse like Wipeout-HD.

[ACE-FLO]

As you can see now there are so many names in the recordtables at wipeout-game and we know so many of them and why did they not put in their times right here, where they belong? Wipeoutzone is the first and most complete place there is for a Wipeout pilot.

I tried to enter my records (No CFW / No Jaytech / PSP 1000 pregnant) into the wipeoutzone tables but the process is a bit complicated - or I'm just too stooOOoPid to now the way to do it. But I do want to enter my times... can somebody help / forward me an "idiots guide to entering records in wipeoutzone" please... I'm sorry, I just odn't want to mess up the boards on my first attempt and pissoff any Mods or TimeCops - their jobs are hard enough as it is without me causing havoc lol


Still, I do not like the split in the community and I wish there was a level playing field for Pure and Pulse like Wipeout-HD. You echo my sentiment perfectly, and probably everyone who ever owned the Pure/Pulse titles... thanks for your words of wisdon Mr Ice!:)

[Lance]

I love the record-keeping simplicity of the original WO Trinity and wish it could come again, somehow including online racing in that simplicity. Think of that sort of solid workability, no lag, no respawns, no lost records and rankings, no necessary updates to firmware, no server downtime, no support sites disappearing cause the game ain't sellin' enough anymore...

......

[wakes up] Dammit!

[Frances_Penfold]

Thanks for the historical perspective, Mad-Ice-- very helpful :)

One thing I have wondered is if Wipeout keeps track of TOO MANY racing records-- there are five speed classes and records for laps and races and single races. It requires real effort to replay all the game modes and speed classes and to upload the data to the tables.

I wonder if it would helpful if everybody could agree to focus on particular speed classes (phantom?) and one or two game modes (fastest lap + race time?) just to streamline things.


I am a crazy old man that misses the days of polyester, AM radio and pong!

Joking aside, I agree with you :) Update-able firmware and game-specific patches are nifty-- and I certainly understand why hardware makers and game developers are pushing them now-- but it adds a whole new level of complication to competitive gameplay, especially for racing games.

I mean, the firmware-based bump to 266 mHz that Mad-Ice mentions-- that's something that past games never had to deal with. WOHD is even more complicated due to the numerous patches/updates that it has received.

On the positive side, the whole PAL vs. NTSC thing is becoming less problematic. Region lock-out + TV display differences + region-specific content was a huge pain-in-the-ass for competitive TT'ing.



...PSP 1000 pregnant...

You sly dog! ;)

Seriously though, I was intimidated when I first entered my times on the website. It's ok though-- you can always delete times that are entered incorrectly-- and folks understand that there is a learning curve in using the system. I would try to upload one or a few times and see how it works, I bet you will be fine :)

[Darkdrium777]

I think you're seeing things way more complicated than what they actually are.

IMO competition is fair as long as you're driving the ship. The moment you're using external aid, that's where I have a problem (AR-Max, cheat code, controller mod, whatever).
Patches are ok, they're the official rules too. As long as everything falls within the rules, IMO it's ok. So yeah that 266Mhz should be no problem, everyone's got it as part of an official patch. 333Mhz however is available only with unofficial patch, so no, even if I use 333Mhz.

Also I don't understand why we should "agree" to race only in a few specific modes. The game allows choice, if you don't want to play that mode feel free to not do so... Why prevent others from entering their times if they are playing the modes you aren't playing...

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

It's the CFW that's not allowed on WZ records though, right? Not just CFW@333mhz?
As I understand it, I'm not allowed to enter CFW times, even if I set it to 100mhz.:lol

[Lance]

Somehow a quote just doesn't seem like a quote when you completely change the content. :g

[Frances_Penfold]

IMO competition is fair as long as you're driving the ship. The moment you're using external aid, that's where I have a problem (AR-Max, cheat code, controller mod, whatever).

Sure, I agree with this. I use OFW and fully manually control (no jaytech).

My point is that there are lots of folks that use CFW or would prefer to use jaytech-- these folks aren't contributing to our record tables and as a result, there is very little activity. Have y'all looked at the Pulse tables recently? They are RIDICULOUSLY undersubscribed-- only a handful of active participants.

What can be done to change this? Personally, I would prefer that WOZ accommodate jaytech (with split tables or whatever) IF it increased participation in Pure/Pulse.



Also I don't understand why we should "agree" to race only in a few specific modes. The game allows choice, if you don't want to play that mode feel free to not do so...

Let's look at this from the perspective of a busy gamer. There are five speed classes and three game modes on bunches of tracks-- about 60 between Pure and Pulse.

That equals 5 x 3 x 60 records to be entered... that's 900 total records... probably 6-8 HOURS of time to enter those records. Who the **** has time to do this ONCE, much less multiple times due to changes in firmware or improvement of racing lines? Heck, I play Pure/Pulse daily and I don't bother keeping track of anything except lap times.

Of course, there this nothing wrong with Wipeout games keeping track of many statistics, and of course folks are free to decide what they want to focus on.

My point is simply that the community *might* be better served by focusing on a smaller number of record types (speed classes, race modes, etc.) because it would thus be easier to generate good times and upload these in WOZ record table.

Apologies if I am stepping on any toes or whatever in writing these posts. I just would like to see time trial competition improve for the Wipeout games so that we can match that existing for other major racing franchises (F-zero, MK, GT) and am wondering out loud how this could happen :)

[Lance]

}hears crunching noises{ :g

[Frances_Penfold]

Heh, I think you should get that hearing aid checked the next time you're at J.C. Penny's buying polyester shirts and AM radios :nod

:)

[Lance]

My ears are so sensitive that I hear the sounds of crushed toes.

I don't recall being in Penney's or buying polyester shirts in the last 30 years or so. Longer than that for AM. You've heard of those things? How old aRe you? ;)

[Frances_Penfold]

I'm 37-- old enough to remember polyester and AM radio but not old enough to have much nostalgia for them, I guess.

Apologies for the age-ribbing-- I'm probably in the older 1/3 of the WOZ'ers so I figure I can make fun of one of my fellow members of the Wipeout Geriatrics League ;)

[Lance]

On your last legs, eh? So perhaps you actually nEEd that piece of tape to hold the pitch control in place? ;)

[ACE-FLO]

lol, I just turned 34 today, if I ever consider using a piece of tape on my psp in future, i'd have to give up playing wipeout... not happening lol

Some good posts here btw...

[Frances_Penfold]

Heh, I think my wrists will give out before my fingers, so that tape isn't really gonna help with the ergonomics ;)

Too bad for the folks that favor jay tech, they could argue their case against age-discrimination!

ACE-FLOW, glad to meet a fellow thirty-something* gamer-- seems like there are a bunch of us here.





* look, Lance-- it's an 80's reference!

[Lance]

I think I watched one episode of that show.

-----------

Better ergonomics would help even the youngest gamers. Especially on the usually awkward portables.