View Full Version : Playstation 3 HDD Upgrade

29th May 2008, 12:19 PM
Who out there has taken the 2.5inch SATA HDD from there PS3 console and replaced it with a larger capacity HDD?

Got a spare 160GB HDD which i havent used yet? Was thinking about replacing the exsisting 60GB HDD in the console.

Was wondering has anybody encountered any problems?

Rapier Racer
29th May 2008, 05:58 PM
Its apparently very easy, take a look here there is a how to video


29th May 2008, 06:07 PM
Cheers thanks for the Link. When ive got some good free time i think ill give it a shot.

This is another reason why Sony's Playstation 3 console is better than Microsoft's XBOX 360 console. Universal HDD compatability and upgradable.

I think i might keep a hold of this HDD and go for a larger size one like 250GB or 320GB. Need a decent size HDD to combat with my ever increase music collection, and photo and movie collection.

29th May 2008, 06:18 PM
I keep most of my digital media on my PC and access it via the PS3's media centre functionality.

Hopefully if I keep doing this my 60GB PS3 HDD will last me indefinitely.

I'm not 100% sure but I think you can just plug in external HDDs via USB to the PS3 which you could use for music, videos and so on without openeing up your console. This is a huge benefit over the competition as far as I'm concerned.

29th May 2008, 06:28 PM
Yeah I'm pretty sure that works; saw that at a mate's house.
Nonetheless I'm a fan of as less as possible extra hardware for my computer stuff :)

1st June 2008, 11:53 PM
You can definitely use external hard-drives via USB, but they have to be formatted to FAT32. Wish I'd known that before I formatted my external HD to NTFS then put 300 GB of data on it...

As for replacing the internal HD, I'm 99% sure the manual that comes with a PS3 has instructions on how to do it.

2nd June 2008, 12:10 AM
Both affirmations are correct jmoid ;)

14th June 2008, 09:07 PM
Just wondering whats the largest 2.5inch SATA Hard Disk Drives avaliable on the market? Is it just 500GB atm or is there larger ones avaliable?

14th June 2008, 10:32 PM
Haven't seen any larger than that, I think that's top of the range for 2.5" drives at the moment.

15th June 2008, 05:17 PM
... And what do you need a terrabyte on yer PS3 for?

15th June 2008, 05:47 PM
pr0n :D

Kidding of course ;)

I think it's a wise thing to upgrade the HDD since games will come with mandatory installs more often now, and with each games taking a few GBs you want to have some space where to leave them installed, instead of waiting 20 minutes each time you want to play the game (Well, you COULD make lots of sandwiches. :p)

15th June 2008, 06:17 PM
also you can store music so you don't have to stream it / have your computer on. it's even more pertinent for movies because streaming movies is...not fantastic.

15th June 2008, 08:53 PM
... And what do you need a terrabyte on yer PS3 for?

For several reasons. You know i wouldnt mind to go even further and go for 2 or 4 TB. Here are some of the reasons on needing a HDD with more space on the PS3:

Music: 60GB just wont cut it for much longer with my ever exponentially expanding music collection which consists mainly of sweet Ministry of Sound as well as other Artists in the music Genre's of Dance/Hard Dance/Electro/Hard Electro/Trance/Fusion/House/Electronica/Progressive Electronica.

Video: Home recorded videos and Movie's in both standard and high definition take up a **** load of space. Im suprised this one video which my mate recorded which took only a few minutes to chew up a 2GB SD card. That file would be huge if it went for an hour. So the PS3 would become very full quickly if i where to store all of these videos on the PS3.

Pictures: Ive got alot, i mean alot of photos from all the Carshows which i go to every year. There good for show and tell to everybody. Oh photos from the Red Bull Air Race i get are awesome as well.

Games: If all the games are going to be like Wipeout HD and only avaliable on the PSN. Then it would be a smart thing to upgrade to a larger HDD. Plus if the PS3 is going to be on the Market as long as the PS2 (9 years going on 10) there are going to be alot of content avaliable during that time frame.

I find that backing all my multimedia on the PS3 is a good idea cause i dont know how many times the home PC has corrupted itself which is real pain. The Toshiba that i got replace has'nt corrupted itself again thank god. I might look into getting a replacment HDD when the larger sizes come out.

Darkdrium777 and taqili comments are spot on as well.

15th June 2008, 09:18 PM
Yep. 500GB is the maximum atm afaik.
But then - if you really want to go es far as 2-4TB - there's always the option to use an external drive :)

15th June 2008, 09:52 PM
i replaced mine with a 320GB last week, was rapidly running out of space with all the installs.

would recommend doing it sooner rather than later as the 'backup' functionality is rather bad.. you get the option to backup up everything or nothing.. so having only a 4gb usb key i had to manually delete all my demo's, install's, music, etc. you could manually copy specific files, but on trying to copy things like my tekken save data was told i couldnt.. hence the mass deleting to get under 4gb

still it's all done now, so i am patiently waiting for the 1gb of wipeout ;)

15th June 2008, 11:06 PM
I have a few external HDDs both small Western Digital plug and play ones that run off the power of the USB cable not an addition AC adapter. Use to have them plug into the PS3, but they where creating unwanted clutter with the array/networks of cables 'n' **** everywhere.

Hmm, well ive got a Western Digital plug in play HDD empty 60GB HDD version. So i guess i can backup the 45GB of data from the first PS3 HDD over to the newer PS3 HDD once ive installed that, no data sacrificed hopefully.

Now ive got a question:
If i purchase Wipeout HD off the PSN, which would save it onto my current Hard Disk Drive, and later on i choose to backup the contents of the first HDD, then transfer them over once ive installed the larger capacity HDD. Would Wipeout HD still work/function the same or would the data be seen as corrupted data since ive essentially copy the entire game data. Would this happen??

15th June 2008, 11:51 PM
Don't worry anyways, you can download a PSN game an unlimited number of times on up to five different systems. So you will be able to download WipEout HD another time when you replace your HDD for free.

16th June 2008, 02:44 PM
Cool. I dont have to worry about it then.

Has anyone connected a 5.1 Sound System to there PS3 console? Does it sound realy good? Cause i was think about upgrading the current sound system which is just a 2.1 Logitech X230 sound great but i want to listen to the Dolby 5.1 Surround Soundtrack Wipeout HD has to offer. Its gonna sound so sweet. Wipeout HD is realy going to push the benchmark on each new racer that comes out from now on.

16th June 2008, 04:31 PM

Im using really great headphones with 5.1 sound on the board:
sharkoon x-tatic 5.1.Its compatibile with ps2,xbox,x360 and ps3.
Really clean sound and for sure good stuff for night sesions..
with upcoming hd of course.


16th June 2008, 07:23 PM
I have 5.1 connected to PS3 and it sounds awesome! Although a good 2.1 sound system sounds really good too :)

16th June 2008, 10:34 PM
You know those Headphones look really good emwu23, i might just buy them. I havent seen them in the stores here before. Probaly because Australia gets all the shitty merchandise the rest of the globe doesnt want. I might just purchase a set of them Online them. Like what ive done before on several occasions.

Sound really cool. I was looking at the features the Sharkoon X-Tatic 5.1, impressive they are.

Heres a link if anybody doesnt know what im going on about:
http://www.headphoneworld.com/p/Sharkoon_X-Tatic_5.1_II_Dolby_Certified_Headphones_with_Detac hable_Microphone.htm

I think that the Home Entertainment System (PS3 Console) have replaced the Stereos of the 1990s. Put your music stash on the PS3 console, and crank it up when youve got guests over, thats if youve got a good set of speakers on it.

17th June 2008, 04:28 AM
Headphones? What happened to upgrading the HDD?

17th June 2008, 04:40 PM
Well upgrading HDD = More space for music -> Need something good to listen to it.

That's how I see it, but it's just me :g

17th June 2008, 06:18 PM
}rolls eyes{

Yes, but talking about headphones and sound systems in general for a page or so pulls away from the actual topic too long; if there's going to be a long discussion of sound equipment, it should have a separate thread devoted to it. Why not start one? :) Clearly, there's plenty of interest in that subject.

17th June 2008, 08:35 PM
Headphones? What happened to upgrading the HDD?

}rolls eyes{

Yes, but talking about headphones and sound systems in general for a page or so pulls away from the actual topic too long; if there's going to be a long discussion of sound equipment, it should have a separate thread devoted to it. Why not start one? Clearly, there's plenty of interest in that subject.

Upgrading the HDD is still on the adgenda. Im just also looking for ways to make the use of the full potential of the PS3 Console. Im waiting till larger HDD come avaliable like in 500GB plus sizes.

I was thinking about starting a thread on sound systems in general. But ive created that many thread in the past month i think i would of began to irritate the moderators, due to the extra work load ive put on you guys to check every individual thread and post. Anyway, Im going to start it off now in the Pilots Lounge now called "Sound Systems".

17th June 2008, 08:42 PM
Posting so much offtopic stuff increases the workload for the moderators more than starting a new topic for the subject since they have to make sure it doesn't wander off for too long at a time.

If you start a new topic on sound systems, please start it in the ^offtopic^ section, since Pilot's Lounge is better for subjects pertaining more directly to actual WO gameplay or more about the pilots themselves.

17th June 2008, 09:01 PM
****. Sorry just did that. Maybe its best to get it moved to Offtopic now. It is a little Wipeout related so it could stay in the Pilots Lounge. But moved it where you think i suited best Lance.:)

17th June 2008, 09:03 PM
I already did it. :D

3rd July 2008, 07:47 AM
Hey guys im just looking at a replacement HDD for the PS3 now, cause now im officially nearly dead on space on the PS3 console....

What i wanted to ask does it matter if the HDD you replace it with is a 5400rpm or a 7200rpm spinning drive? Whats the restrictions on the PS3 console??

3rd July 2008, 12:35 PM
Get a 2.5 inch 5400 rpm i reckon - you won't honestly need the 7200 rpm.

3rd July 2008, 02:03 PM
I think the 7200RPM makes about 5% difference. The cache on the other hand will make a greater difference. I've selected one that's 7200 with 16Mb cache. It's about another 20 quid - so why not?

320Gb WD Scorpio 7200 16Mb cache

Due out later this month I think.

14th July 2008, 01:06 AM
Just replaced my 40gb with a 250gb Western Digital 5400 for just 50. Of course the 250gb is really not that much - it`s 232 in the end. I wonder how they get away with it. Good job similar marketing doesn`t apply to petrol sales. Unless I`m missing something.

One weird thing though, before the change I had 14gb/40gb free. After the system back up and restore I had 189gb/232gb. Those numbers don`t seem to make sense, unless the PS3 grabs a % of the HDD for its own use with updates. I heard it does reserve some for its own mysterious uses.

I was a bit scared in the HDD changeover operation, and my pulse rate was definitely above normal! But the disk change is very very very easy to do. You would have to be a neanderthal to mess it up really.

14th July 2008, 01:35 AM
The PS3 uses a part of the free space available for administrative purposes. The bigger the drive, the bigger the "administrative" partition is. That is probably due to the fact that the drive is encrypted, and space is used for this encryption process...

14th July 2008, 07:56 AM
Thanks, that clears it up. :)

14th July 2008, 04:56 PM
Here is the full answer:

Manufacturers calculate drive size as 1 gigabyte as (10^9) not as (2^30)
Consumer confusion caused by non standard units of measure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabyte#Consumer_confusion)
PS3 internally uses 2^30, Manufactors of Drives use 10^9

Firmware - while stored and used mostly in flash memory - has a backup copy on the HDD
Swap File that is approximately 10% of drive size (80 gig... 7 gig swap file)
Future System Updates reserved space

1, 2, 3 are confirmed 4 is supposition.

From here (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=3088693&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)

14th July 2008, 05:05 PM
Yeah, oddly enough everyone has a different idea of how big a kilobyte is.

15th July 2008, 06:37 AM
Ah another xkcd reader! *hugs*

15th July 2008, 08:44 AM
...and space is used for this encryption process...

Any further info on this?

15th July 2008, 05:23 PM
I just gave the correct answer as to why the HDD free space isn't the space advertised. Read up. ^

16th July 2008, 09:33 AM
Yeh, I understand all about sectors vs logical size etc. Just was interested to read more about the encryption as I work in IT security.
Charming. Thanks for that Drium.

There's only really random comments on forums about it using it, no technical testing that's easy and quick to find. I get 5 minutes or so to post on here now and then, but I do have a job.

16th July 2008, 03:38 PM
Well I wouldn't know about the encryption process really, as it is encrypted and impossible to read from the drive :P If you have a PS3 you can try plugging the disc in your PC but you will not see anything...

20th July 2008, 01:21 PM
Ah another xkcd reader! *hugs*
Another one here...

22nd September 2008, 09:48 PM

I just upgraded the PS3 HDD then, Just i the nick of time before HD is released in a couple of days. Took friggin ages for the backup and even longer to restoe the data, a few hours it was. But def worth it. If you have not much space left on your PS3 HDD and you want to put as much of your music stash on the console so you can listen to it while playing Wipeout HD. May i suggest you quickly duck into the shops get a large HDD for your PS3 before HD is released, this is highly recommend, and it will save you a **** load of trouble later down the track.;)

Cya in HD:g

22nd September 2008, 10:52 PM
any chance of us getting a list of what everyone has and have upgraded to???

I'm not the best with computer hardware...so a list of what's been tried and proven would be greatly appreciated...I'd probebly look into 7200 with a 16mb cache...any recommendations for brands???

I'm surprised I'm still surviving on 40Gb only barely...once HD arrives...I'm gonna need more space for my music...:)

23rd September 2008, 01:49 PM
Well Orange im more of a car nut, opposed to many people on this forum who are computer nuts. Installation was rather simple and easy. RR put a link on this thread a few pages back with a visual illustration of how to install a new HDD into the PS3 console. Go back a few pages and check it out. BTW you should find the right sized phillips head screwdriver before attempting this job.

Now i have the now old school 60Gb PS3 console (was 60Gb). That had a Hard Disk Drive that was a Seagate Momentus 5400rpm, i think that it had a 8mb cache in it. Im sure the 40Gb PS3 version had the same brand a similar spec HDD also.

I did it safe and got the same brand and the same type of HDD again, it was another Seagate Momentus but this time it was a 160Gb varient, rpm was still 5400 and the cache remains the same i think. PS3 runs smoothly and fine now. It was worth it. No trouble as of yet. Now i dont have to worry about transfering the Wipeout HD game and all of my save data files to a larger HDD for another few more years hopefully.

I wonderer if a 7200rpm HDD would be noiser than a 5200rpm varient in the PS3 console?

Who else has change there PS3 HDD out there?

30th December 2008, 04:32 PM
Just wondering can Solid Slate Drives can work on the PS3 just like the 2.5" SATA HDD?

30th December 2008, 09:14 PM
I think you might have trouble with the power supply and I think they run hotter than a standard drive,other than that if it formats the same I don't see why not......apart from the sheer cost of them.$$$ Ouch!

31st December 2008, 01:58 AM
Apparently they work fine but I think that for some reason xmb to game menu is a bit slower on SSDs.

it depends how big your christmas bonus/lottery win was ;)

i whacked a cheeky little 7200rpm 320gb drive-works a treat!

31st December 2008, 07:01 AM
it depends how big your christmas bonus/lottery win was ;)

i whacked a cheeky little 7200rpm 320gb drive-works a treat!

Dont know that til the 3rd of January....:D

Yeah my 160GB upgrade is doing great. Got all the music and movie videos i want in one place.

31st December 2008, 11:42 AM
good enough reason as any :)

i know, it's brilliant! i still need to trawl through my music collection to make a WO playlist though, although i do like the original soundtrack a lot.

i'll get back on topic. for anyone wanting to replace the HDD, be careful not to strip the blue screws (you'll see them) when you do it. that's what i did, not a good way to go about it.

31st December 2008, 12:16 PM
There is a guide on upgrading a HD for a PS3 at the Aus/Nz Playstation forum.

Here's the link.

2nd October 2009, 02:10 AM
Just chasing up for a larger HDD in the PS3,

and the prices are pretty cheap nowdays,

500GB 2.5 SATA $120 AUD. Good buys.

Also which is also coming out soon,

640 GB
750 GB
1 TB

all in the 2.5 SATA notebook/PS3 sized HDDs. From this special place i go to, to buy computer equipment at direct prices (PLE Computers)

Im not sure if these large sized HDDs can fit in the PS3, since they are a tad fatter in width to the smaller 2.5 SATA HDDs. and the issue of formatting and compatibility would be an issue too. But there are some good choices out there nowdays :)

6th October 2009, 05:52 PM
... Im not sure if these large sized HDDs can fit in the PS3, since they are a tad fatter in width to the smaller 2.5 SATA HDDs. and the issue of formatting and compatibility would be an issue too. ...
They won't fit if their width is larger than 2.5". And there is currently no known capacity
limitation a PS3 can take (albeit there was one back with fw 1.x). Someone lately installed
a 1TB disk on its PS3.

7th October 2009, 03:57 AM
Just changed out the 40GB drive the system came with (A Seagate btw) and replaced it with a 250GB WD drive. It was a pretty straightforward swap. I used an external drive to back up the data,swapped the drive, and used the restore backup. all in all it took maybe a couple hours counting the time it took to back up the system and restore it.

7th October 2009, 06:06 AM
They won't fit if their width is larger than 2.5". And there is currently no known capacity
limitation a PS3 can take (albeit there was one back with fw 1.x). Someone lately installed
a 1TB disk on its PS3.

Pow! **** me! a 1TB PS3, damn thats good. Imagine how many movies you could put on your console. Brilliant. Ive got 70GB left in my 160GB HDD that i installed in my PS3 last year. I might be tempted to get a larger one for sure fairly soon. What i have noticed my XMB is starting to go slower and slower, especially opening messages and closing them.

7th October 2009, 07:11 AM
I installed a 500GB Seagate Momentus (7200rpm, 16MB cache, 11ms) on my PS3 about
two month ago. And it burns. A good performance increase is noticable esp. when skipping
through pictures and while using the browser. Game loading-times are faster as well, but not
by a big margin. Last but not least, the XMB feels much more responsive in those case
where a disk access is involved.

7th October 2009, 07:22 AM
Yeah im going to bare that in mind when purchasing another HDD. Opt for a 7200rpm one instead of a 5400rpm one. Mines getting very slow and is becoming bullshit. I think that 500GB is the max with the 7200rpm type Hard Disc Drives. Ill keep that in mind when purchasing next time. (Still need to get the 1080p TV and the better internet connection first).

12th May 2010, 12:37 AM
Actually rammed a 500gig hard disk drive in my PS3 not so long ago. I have to say the XMB loads really slow now. I wouldnt recommend anything larger than this size hard disk drive in there PS3, reason being i dont think the PS3 would be able to handle it. Maybe the slims are better at handling larger hard drives compared to the older consoles.

16th August 2010, 02:25 AM
I just put a 500 GB HHD into my Slim yesterday.

It's a "Seagate Momentus XT ST95005620AS", and is actually a hybrid disk. partially a normal HDD and partially a SSD. It also has 32 MB cache(4GB blitz, dunno what that is).

It's nice with more space, and the loading times have been shortened some. But that's really just phsycological.

However when joining an online race, I'm always first in on the map now, and I always have to wait for the other players to load their maps before we can start, which was pretty cool. So the console just got a little loading boost, and performs better.

EDIT: 7200 rpm also. ^^

16th August 2010, 10:04 AM
Nice one. :+

I have to say I've been disappointed with the 500Gb hard drive I put in my PS3 back in December. Seems to have slowed it right down. :|

16th August 2010, 10:50 AM
I think you also have more data on your disk since December, right? It's not
your disc, it's the PS3s filesystem. The system slows considerably down as
more files you store on it. I also think there isn't any defragmentation or
something. One thing is for sure, the PS3s filesystem was built for security
and not for efficiency. However, with the ever increasing capacity, Sony
needs to increase the performance of the filesystem anytime soon.

16th August 2010, 07:37 PM
I have installed a 250 gb, but from the hard drive installed I have a lot more stoppages of the image online racing


time 7.16

16th August 2010, 09:55 PM
@ProblemSolver I don't have that much more data, or at least my data density isn't as high as it was on the old 60Gb drive - that was almost 90% full, while there's probably about 100Gb on the new drive.

What's annoying is seeing the icons spinning without any obvious reason why they're doing it. I can have a game load freeze up on me, but if I press the PS button twice it snaps out of it and normal service is resumed.

Think I'd have been better going for a 100Gb SSD drive than the 500Gb one, as it's so slow that I can't be bothered storing much on it. That said, I did get a bog standard one - it only has 8Mb of cache, which is meagre by modern standards.

16th August 2010, 10:16 PM
Don't get a Solid State Drive!!!!
They are so unreliable for one thing and secondly they only have a finite life.
I've had a fair bit of experience with these drives.
The way they work, the only reasonable situation that they could be used is for a PC's OS ONLY, NOT to store data that is going to moved about, or rewritten several times.
They also need a new version of a INTEL SSD driver software to operate properly, something you can't install in a PS3.
Plus it's impossible to defrag a SSD in a PC, they stop working if you try, all windows OS need you to tick a box telling it that that a SSD is install exactly so it won't attempt to do it.

I couldn't think of a worse combination of a PS3 and a SSD, it really would be a nightmare.

17th August 2010, 12:39 AM
You sure about that SSD defragmentation? I have Diskeeper 2010 and here's what is says about SSDs:


I know it doesn't say if it does a defrag or not, but it doesn't say it doesn't. It still talks about optimization.

17th August 2010, 04:25 AM
It's best if I explain a few basic differences between how SSD's work, then I'll point out what the problems are.

SSD use flash memory, drives store the information either in single bit or two bit's [SLC = Single level cell or MLC = Multi level cell], most new ones use MLC.
These cells are the building blocks of a SSD and are arranged into pages, the average size page is 4kb.
These pages are combined to form blocks, with the most common block being 128 pages = 512kb.
SSD's can read and write to a single page [4kb] at a time, but here's the problem, they can only erase a block [128 pages] at a time.

Slowing down over time.
Once a page is full it can't simply be overwritten like a HDD, the SSD must first erase the page before it can write to it again, but to delete a small bit it has to delete a whole 512kb block, it has to find space to put that block, it doesn't take long for this process to slow your SSD to a snails pace.
Also the reason why you can never fill a SSD as it will always need space to write to.
There is a new spec called TRIM that needs both the OS and the SSD manufactures support to work.
This addresses some of these problems but few drives support it at the moment, the ones that do are around 5-6 times faster than those that don't

SSD Failure and Defragging problem
Each of the MOSFETS, the cells that store the bits can only be written to between 10,000 and 100,000 times, that's if they aren't faulty when you buy one, it only takes one chip to fail in the drive and it's stuffed and I've seen over a 30% failure rate in the first 2-3 months atm
Since the flash cells have a finite life, erasing and writing to them unnecessarily [by defragging] is going to shorten their lifespan, when you factor in that they can only erase large chucks of data at a time this problem is compounded.

INTEL came out with the Non-Volatile Memory Host Controller Interface [NVMHCI] to replace the ATA interface specifically to boost the take up of SS technology.
I'm not sure if it made it into Windows 7, it was still being debated, but I know Windows 7 automatically spots a SSD and disables the ability to defrag for that drive.

As I mentioned before, I wouldn't recommend using a SSD for anything other than purely as a separate drive for the OS.
In that capacity they are blindingly fast, and will speed up everything you do, and as long as the actual chips don't fail inside them which is still a real problem till manufactures get this sort from the experience I've had with them.

17th August 2010, 07:08 AM
Most decent SSD's are designed to be able to run without extra software being necessary. It shouldn't be that big of a deal. SLC SSD's don't have a finite life, and from my experience (I have a 128GB MLC drive in my PC), SSD has drastically improved speeds for loading programs, file transfers and general system snappiness. Had it for 4 months without issue, and it's my first SSD. Looking at its health in CrystalDiskInfo, it's at 98%. The SSD is my -only- drive for my PC, and while I've taken steps to minimise the number of unnecessary writes, I aren't changing how I use my computer to avoid them.

Even without TRIM, 10k-100k writes per cell would take 4-5 years of above average COMPUTER use to build up enough bad blocks to impact performance. Most people don't use their PS3's nearly as much as their computers, either.

Defragging: everything that needs to be said about this is that it doesn't offer a single benefit since the drives all have a seek time of less than 0.1ms regardless of where data is stored on the disk; and as Wiggle said, it just wears the drive out faster.

Since the PS3's successor will be arriving within 3 years, I really don't think there would be much issue with installing an SSD. You could just back your data up and transfer it to a cheap drive if you still wanted to hold onto the PS3 and repurpose the SSD for something else.

There's no need to panic about installing an SSD in a PS3... especially if you somehow get your hands on an SLC drive, since they suffer none of the wear issues MLC does (but they're nearly twice the price for equivalent sizes).