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Frances_Penfold
23rd February 2008, 02:45 PM
Now that we've all put 100+ hours into Wipeout Pulse, I figure maybe we can sort out the importance of pitch control in the game ;)

The two questions in my mind are:

1. Does pitch matter in straight away sections? Obviously pitch is important for controlling ships over curving and undulating track sections-- either to hug the ship next to the track, or to get some air to execute a barrel roll. But in a straight, non-undulating track section, does pushing "up" on the d-pad (thus pushing the ship "down") increase ship speed?

2. How is pitch control best implemented? Right now I basically "add" the up direction on the d-pad to my left and right movements, so that there is a lot of diagonal use of the d-pad. But is there a better way?

Any thoughts or ideas?

stin
23rd February 2008, 03:22 PM
Well, asa told me to try pitch down to gain slightly more speed, but, it`s no easy feat, because, I was forced to control left or Right. Everytime I pitch down and I drive like a drunken man.
Now, I did tested it, on mag-strip, does not gained speed but on ordinary track, that I don`t know yet, unless somebody can gives us some ideas.

On certain tracks, try to keep nose down which does save few mini-secs but not gain speed are two different things.

stevie:)

Frances_Penfold
23rd February 2008, 08:25 PM
Yeah, I'm still trying to get the hang of doing pitch control while steering at the same time. Slowly getting better at it-- lots of diagnal pressing on the d-pad.

What was the consensus about the importance of pitch control in Pure?

Stardragon88
24th February 2008, 09:33 PM
Yeah, I too am pretty puzzled at the use of pitch control on straights, I've not observed any gain in speed. That said, I do use it to land more quickly after a BR so I can get the boost done with quicker. Some of the floatier sections of Platinum Rush and Fort Gale seem to benefit too.

zargz
25th February 2008, 09:46 AM
1. Does pitch matter in straight away sections?yes, it does and it Really Sucks!
sure wasn't a rocket scientist that came up with that for the game.
hello-oo! physics!!?
not to mention how awkward the steering gets!
anyway..

on flash, fort gale on the start straigh, long enough to experiment on, with an assegai and
not pressing the nose down it makes 531 km/hr. pressing it down -> 555 km/hr.
try it you'll see.
haven't tried it on mag strips.

I hate it but yeh, I use it.
when starting and on straights.

lunar
25th February 2008, 10:07 AM
Yes that does suck. Do you think that on a long straight like on Fort Gale you wouldn`t be better off just nicely linking the speed pads than fiddling with nose down? Is it possible to do both, to keep the nose down and still get the nice line through the pads? Pulse is a great game and I adore it, but if to reach a high level we have to pitch down for almost the entire track, and BR off every dog-turd on the way, then for me it`s getting close to being a ridiculous exercise to go for the best possible times. I still love the game a heck of a lot though, I just might not be as motivated as I was in Pure to aim for the top. ;) :paperbag

zargz
25th February 2008, 11:33 AM
.. if to reach a high level we have to pitch down for almost the entire track, and BR off every dog-turd on the way, then for me it`s getting close to being a ridiculous exercise to go for the best possible times.Ridiculous is the word, lunar! couldn't have said it better my self.

as for making a 'nice' line getting all the speedpads, as stin said it's gets shaky to say the least.

there was a guy here that said he used a tape bit on the up (d-pad) and and beat his best times for moa. :?

I wonder what's next for hd besides pressing the nose down all the time and br on 'every dog-turd'?
jumping up and down on one foot while spinning around
with a pirate eyelap 'cross yer face and singing 'what do we do with a drunken sailor?'
:pirate aye?

to answer your first question, I was talking about the straight after the last corner, the start grid straight
and there's only 1 sp.pad just after the last turn.
on the straight before the big jump(1st tunnel) yeh, I just try to pick up all the SPs.

Asayyeah
25th February 2008, 12:14 PM
Pitch down the nose is useless in a mag strip section like Stevie said, on a straight line free of magstrip the gain is not big, especially in phantom mode : you are always around 790/793 kph but strangely feeling of being faster than without pitch down is present. So do we need to trust the speedcounter?

Frances_Penfold
25th February 2008, 02:39 PM
Thanks much for the feedback, guys :)

So to summarize... sounds like pitch control DOES matter, to some degree, depending on the track type (normal vs. mag strip) and the speed class.


there was a guy here that said he used a tape bit on the up (d-pad) and and beat his best times for moa.

Yikes. So, barring use of tape, do most of y'all use diagnal motions (up and left / up and right) to steer while controlling pitch? I assume from reading other threads that most players use the d-pad...


But strangely feeling of being faster than without pitch down is present. So do we need to trust the speedcounter?

Interesting point! I suppose we are assuming the speedometer is absolutely correct, which may not be the case. Hmmm.

Off topic-- have you moved to Holland, Asayyeah?!

Medusa
25th February 2008, 03:54 PM
I notice a definite speed increase in Pulse with nose-down, only in regular track sections. On the mag-strip it does nothing that I can see.

"I wonder what's next for hd besides pressing the nose down all the time and br on 'every dog-turd'?":lol
Autumn in Valparaiso, you'd never see it until you stepped in it!

"jumping up and down on one foot while spinning around
with a pirate eyelap 'cross yer face and singing 'what do we do with a drunken sailor?'
aye?" *sings* "early in the morrrning...way, hey, and up she rises..." Hmmm, maybe that could be it. Voice-activated barrel rolls when you sing that song, just like a drunken sailor heaving in a rolling lifeboat. BR's are so nauseous I think that song works very well.;)

lunar
25th February 2008, 05:09 PM
@Asa, I hope you`re right about it perhaps not being essential in Phantom to put the nose down. Pitch down for jumps, avoiding floating in places, and for landings is all fine and what we should expect imo, but to have to do it all the time, on a controller not designed for it, would be seriously tiring.

@Zargz, nice song idea :lol

Rapier Racer
26th February 2008, 05:45 PM
I agree having to hold up during most of the race to gain a fast time would be nonsense, needless to say I've got some decent times and didn't bother with that sort of nonsense once. I only use pitch on certain corners.

More so in the upper speed classes I find it is necessary to use pitch to turn the corner sharply and keep my ship on the track (first turn of de Konstruct for example) because a tap on the air brake sends it soaring off like a kite.

phl0w
26th February 2008, 07:10 PM
Since you get a slightly higher top speed and a better boost off pads, I got used to tilting my ship's nose down on straights, I don't even notice it anymore, I automatized the process. As soon as a race is loaded, I press UP, long before the countdown starts. In bends it's a different story, although I'd like to, the PSP's controls don't allow a precise input of that kind (diagonals, hello?), so I only use it in sweepers and bends that require only a quick or repeated tapping of a direction. Also, I raise "my" nose to gain needed airtime for a BR or lower it to hug the track on some bumps on Phantom, respectively use it to avoid bottoming out (Arc Prime's undulation for example). Just the usual stuff, that everybody does I guess. It's a traditional mechanic in WO and a useful one, so I am OK with it, although the PSP's pad is too imprecise to utilize it effectively. Mine for example interprets a hard tap UP as UP+RIGHT, which can get VERY annoying, not only in WO. To sum up: I think it's a perfectly fine method to improve one's time, because it requires practice, but doesn't "feature" the randomness from, say, the BR :). It's only, that it requires a stable input method, something the PSP can't deliver. At least the phat one, from what I heard, the slim version has improved greatly in that department.

Dogsword
2nd March 2008, 04:51 PM
Sorry, nooob here, why would you pitch-up or down?

phl0w
2nd March 2008, 08:50 PM
To benefit from it ;)
Pitch down (d-pad up = nose down):

Higher topspeed on straights (+17kph)
Better traction, especially in bumpy/uphill corners (e.g. Fort Gale, Platinum)
Reduce airtime on Rapier/ Phantom (e.g. Arc Prime, Platinum, Amphiseum)

Pitch up (d-pad down = nose up):

Get airtime off small bumps to execute a BR.
Gain height to ride walls (e.g. Metropia)

Frances_Penfold
2nd March 2008, 10:56 PM
Phl0w, is that +17 km a constant across speed classes?

If so, that would help explain why the advantage of nose down is more evident at the lower speed classes...

(I'm assuming we can trust the speedometer accuracy.)

phl0w
3rd March 2008, 12:24 AM
No, I did some testing and it gets slower the faster the class, apparently in steps of 4
+28, +24, +20, +16
Maybe someone can confirm this?
Strangely, a second test showed another difference:
+27, +24, +19, +16. Which is +3,+5,+3. However, I'm pretty tired and although I'm not able to find an exact pattern tonight, the overall tendency is quite clear so far -> Speed boost decrease through classes is quite linear and not a constant percentage, that's why nose down is more effective in the slower classes (approx. +6% / +4% on Venom / Flash, approx. +3% / +2% on Rapier / Phantom).

Frances_Penfold
3rd March 2008, 02:16 AM
Nice work, phl0w! I'll try to do some tests this week though I'm amazed you guys can do this while trying to fly at the same time :dizzy

The situation you describe is even more extreme than having a constant speed increase based on pushing the nose down-- if it were constant, the percentage increase would drop with increasingly fast speed classes since the number would be a smaller proportion of the max speed.

What you describe is that the raw numerical bonus drops with increasing speed classes, so the percentage effect will drop both because the max speed increases and because of the dropped numerical bonus per se.

Err, am I thinking about this clearly?

I suppose another factor could be the ship, or at least, the top speed of the ship being used-- were all of your tests done with Pirrhana?

phl0w
3rd March 2008, 08:56 AM
Yeah, you're right. What makes it so effective on Venom/Flash is, that the percentage decreases in the first place. If that wasn't true, the benefit on Phantom would be the greatest, due to its topspeed offering the biggest base.
It's quickly done, really. All you need is a straight with a BP at the beginning. The BP will acclereate your ship beyond its topspeed and when the boost wears off the craft will "cruise" at its exact topspeed (and crashing into the next wall in the process ^^). Same procedure with nose down. It's particularly easy with Piranha because the Manual lists the topspeeds for each class, which by logic has to be the Piranha's. (Of course I double-checked, wouldn't rely on logics ;) )

lunar
3rd March 2008, 12:30 PM
Nice work, Phlow, thanks.

I guess this suggests that, at Rapier and Phantom classes especially, you wouldn`t want to use this nose down technique if it had any negative impact at all on your ability to be in the right place for the next bend, or on your ability to take upcoming speed pads in the best way. The speed-up effect from getting the nose down would be easily outweighed by any loss of speed due to an inferior racing line. Would you agree? You could nose-down for speed in Pure at Phantom class, but really it was better to concentrate on getting everything else perfect first, and only do this as the "icing on the cake." Pulse may be the same perhaps.

I think some of this speed increase with pitch down may simply be caused by reducing the ship`s air time, which is something I guess we should be doing anyway when not going for cuts or Barrel Rolls. On a lot of tracks the ship wants to float a lot, just like on WipEout 1, and to go faster you need to get it on the ground as much as possible. That`s no glitch, it`s Wipeout. :)

What might be more significant in pitch control, in Pulse, is the use of diagonals to nose down while you turn. Apparently this can lead to much faster corners. Anyone tested this at all scientifically yet, although it`s obviously harder to test?

Frances_Penfold
3rd March 2008, 02:29 PM
Haven't scientificially tested the diagnal-down on corners, but I do agree that it seems helpful for cornering in some instances. Lots to play with here in terms of advanced techniques!

Interesting question about how much of the advantage of the downward pitch control relates to (a) avoidance of unnecessary air-time VS (b) intrinsic speed increase. Maybe somebody from SL would be allowed to inform us? ;)

phl0w
3rd March 2008, 03:49 PM
Not only does diagonal nose down dramatically increase your cornering ability (latest example: Basilico White Phantom the 90 "left-with-a-bump" after the drop+BR) it propels your ship faster than it's base acceleration too it seems. That's something pretty hard to evaluate because there's no analogue accelerator on the PSP, but I am under the impression that the ships accelerate faster with nose down.

bastienrehm
5th March 2008, 04:40 AM
As far as acceleration is concerned, it seems to me that pressing UP does play a big role: try it when you get utterly stopped by one of those annoying bombs (less than those from pulse that made your ship go backwards, but still...)