Barrel Rolls in HD

[LordVonPS3]

BRs are fun and have added an extra layer of strategy to Wipeout but I wouldn't mind something different in the next iteration of the franchise.

Why wait for the next iteration? Why not just extend the existing game with some new campaign modes & craft that can't do barrel rolls? The game engine is all there, it works & it's good. I think it would be better to take advantage of that & build on it in the same fashion that the developers working on Warhawk and Burnout Paradise built on those games.

[Frances_Penfold]

That's a fair question. I guess my feeling is that the courses in Pure/Pulse (and by extension, WOHD) are carefully built around barrel rolls-- the contours of each track deliberately designed to permit a reasonable number per lap.

I suspect that new courses designed around an alternate boost mechanic might be tailored to that boost mechanic?


i love BRs it makes the game so much more interesting IMO. a couple of my friends had this game for a while telling me how good it was an i should buy it but i personally didnt like racing games. its only when i was watching XBARNSTERX doin laps filled with insane BRs an shortcuts i thought that maybe this racing game is a bit different an has something else to offer. i ride BMX an do free running/gymnastics so to me BRs are like tricks, hard to learn but look amazing when mastered, its what attracted me to the game.

This is why I think SL included BRs in Pure/Pulse/WOHD-- it made the game "fresh" and "different" and thus appealing to a broader audience. As cool as the classic games in the Wipeout lineage are, it was pretty clear that the franchise had to a reach a broader audience to become economically viable. My guess is that inclusion of the barrel rolls was probably deemed as one way to accomplish this.

Put another way-- I don't think that the back/forth arguments by a bunch of nerdy Wipeout hobbyists (myself included) really matters to Sony's long-term plans for the franchise. What *does* matter is catching the attention of new gamers in a crowded marketplace.

[Aeroracer]

i thinkk you look into this too much..i believe sony put BR's into the game cos they thought it was cool and made wipeout a better game. I think there here to stay and in next game we will get another option as well, maybe like loop the loop so you can shoot player up the butt or something.side way flying so you can go though a new super narrow shortcut they put in the track.

[SaturnReturn]

Just because you can switch BR's off doesn't mean you should do if you don't like them. You need to better understand that we've all been told that BR's are integral to the game, therefore it would be wrong (going against the intended experience) to turn them off just for online play.


My friends can't be bothered to play WOHD online (they don't like BR's either) and the main reason I play games online is to play with friends.
Your whole point about playing with friends who also don't like barrel rolls seemed to be a separate one to the point about the experience and realism etc. You are quite clearly implying that barrel rolls are preventing you from enjoying the game online against your equally barrel roll loathing friends. If you don't like them, then an option exists such that you can create an online game without them. All your friends who don't like them can join in and you can all have a big fun game without the barrel rolls. Just because others are having games elsewhere with barrel rolls in doesn't make any odds. Essentially, woods, bears, and the crap of bears, would exist elsewhere, but your own person "online with friends" wood would have no bears, so nothing should be preventing you from frolicking in them. To purposely choose a woods with lots of bears over one with no bears, when you don't like bears or their crap, just because those bears exist, would seem like a "paw" (:lol) decision.

[Aeroracer]

well said mr saturn..The Guy is talking scrub talk..If he knew and could perform all the BR's i bet 5 euro's he would vote to keep them in and would love them to bits.maybe im wrong but i don't think so on this occassion

and as you said along with that other player if you dont want BR' turn them off..but good luck in finding a game.:dizzy:dizzy

edit..Mmmm maybe i was a bit harsh. maybe you dont like BR's cos you like wipeout 2097 so much.if thats case i take back what i said..:)

[SaturnReturn]

I'm not sure it's about being able to perform them or not. I can do most of them, but am myself getting a bit tired of them. The novelty has worn off slightly. I wouldn't call it scrub talk, but I do think it's coming from the wrong direction - one which is more about HD not being 2097, and finding reasons not to like it for not being 2097.

I think for LordVonPS3, and others too, lots of others, the crux of the matter is that HD isn't 2097, and barrel rolls, to them, are a big part of why not. I personally remain unconvinced that HD can be made to feel like 2097, even with faster BR-less ships or recreated tracks. I think the whole physics and feel of the game would still be completely different. So I fear even 2097-alike add-ons would be a big disappointment for the 2097 fans.

[Aeroracer]

wohd could never be like old wipeouts cos the airbrakes are different.i played wipeout one the other day..loaded from ps store and when u air brake u drift sideways.lots of sideway movement.they could motre likey turn ridge racer into wipeout 2097 easier than wohd

[LordVonPS3]

I'm not sure it's about being able to perform them or not. I can do most of them, but am myself getting a bit tired of them. The novelty has worn off slightly. I wouldn't call it scrub talk, but I do think it's coming from the wrong direction - one which is more about HD not being 2097, and finding reasons not to like it for not being 2097.

I think for LordVonPS3, and others too, lots of others, the crux of the matter is that HD isn't 2097, and barrel rolls, to them, are a big part of why not. I personally remain unconvinced that HD can be made to feel like 2097, even with faster BR-less ships or recreated tracks. I think the whole physics and feel of the game would still be completely different. So I fear even 2097-alike add-ons would be a big disappointment for the 2097 fans.

Actually, I'm not just talking about 2097. In some ways the original WipEout is better than 2097 as well as WOHD.

The crux of my argument is that barrel rolls have nothing to do with futuristic racing or any sort of racing in general. Hovercraft, cars, anti-gravity vehicles, etc, whatever you like - don't do barrel rolls. Even if they could or did - they wouldn't gain any extra speed for doing them. In fact, they'd lose speed.

I've always thought of WipEout and 2097 as F3600 anti-gravity racing simulations. The craft in those games didn't need to do barrel rolls for the game to be fast - or hard. Those games are about mastering the tracks and vehicles whilst taking advantage of the weapons. The weapons in the Wipeout series are the 'gimmick'. SL could have built on the weapon set or added moving track sections. The series didn't need a track related speed boost gimmick - cleverly placed speed pads would offer the same effect without the Street Fighter control nonsense.

I can accept perfectly that WOHD is the game SL wanted to make and it is what it is, so I don't think it should be changed now - too many people have got used to it and the trophies like Beat Zico need to stay - and be left alone. The new craft handling (airbrakes included) - is what it is and (although different to 2097,) it is very good and doesn't need changing. At the same time, I don't see any problem extending the game with tracks and new craft that fly slightly faster - but don't do barrel rolls. My 'excuse' to allow this feature - and keep canon - is to 'bring back the 2097 craft', because they never did barrel rolls - and they look better than the WipEout craft. If they're faster than the WOHD craft - even better. The WOHD speeds < Rapier feel slower than Venom on WipEout! Every WipEout fan would like to see the WipEout and 2097 tracks in HD, so my recommendation was to roll the whole lot up and release it as either 1 or 2 add on packs.

I think a lot of people would prefer and pay for such an expansion over and above the classic WOHD campaign + multiplayer.

[SaturnReturn]

For the most part, I have no problem with that last post. It's largely fair enough. But it is more about HD being like the original games isn't it, and less about the actual barrel rolls? If they release an expansion with 2097 ships that don't do barrel rolls, then, when you play online, people will still be doing barrel rolls all around you if they're using the HD ships that can do barrel rolls. So, on the basis of your earlier post, wouldn't you still be where you were before? Wouldn't the only was to not be exposed to barrel rolls when racing others online be to have a race only with 2097 ships, or turning BRs off? Otherwise bears will be crapping all around you.

I'm not trying to say it couldn't work, but just in terms of barrel rolls being a part of the game, wouldn't they still be? How would you see it being implemented as an expansion? Wouldn't it be better as a new iteration, a new game, as Frances_Penfold suggested earlier? Otherwise, taking the game as a whole, barrel rolls will still be a big part of it.

[yeldar2097]

Barrel Roll = Win

:lol

[LordVonPS3]

If they release an expansion with 2097 ships that don't do barrel rolls, then, when you play online, people will still be doing barrel rolls all around you if they're using the HD ships that can do barrel rolls. So, on the basis of your earlier post, wouldn't you still be where you were before?No. If the 2097 craft are indeed faster as I had previously explained - then it won't matter if people are doing barrel rolls... Those craft will be slower! Ergo, gamers will look to use the newer & faster craft which will bring about a new balance to the online in the game.

[Aeroracer]

The crux of my argument is that barrel rolls have nothing to do with futuristic racing or any sort of racing in general. Hovercraft, cars, anti-gravity vehicles, etc, whatever you like - don't do barrel rolls. Even if they could or did - they wouldn't gain any extra speed for doing them. In fact, they'd lose speed.

Hahaha...you do know its not real...don't you.
wipeout is a game and they havn't invented anti gravity racing yet.


The series didn't need a track related speed boost gimmick - cleverly placed speed pads would offer the same effect without the Street Fighter control nonsense.
Hahaha, Street fighter nonsense, street fighter is more popular than wipeout.
Wipeout did need a gimmick and its in the game now and people play it and i can always get a game online cos it's a popular game.

basically my advice to you is ...

1 turn off BR's via options:+
2 Delete WOHD from ps3 and play wipeout2097:+
3 Buy SL and make your own game:dizzy
4 Invent anti grav racing :dizzy

I will agree that 2097 had some nice tracks (gare europa)and the ships looked nice. :+

[SaturnReturn]

OK, but that's quite a big prediction to make. They couldn't make the newer ships outright faster and still integrate them, in my opinion. It would also raise all sorts of issues. As you say, it would bring about a new balance, or, to put it another way, change the current game. In addition, as an expansion, a player would still have to buy HD and possibly Fury too. So I still think that, if you really want a game that is different and more like the originals, then a whole new game would be better. I suspect that a WipEout 2097 HD that could be played as a stand-alone game would be much better than trying to integrate something with a whole different focus and balance into the same game.

[leungbok]

A new game ok, but what about the possibility of beating the BR users online with ships without ability of BR-ing but faster ? :robot

[ACE-FLO]

BR's ROCK!!!!

I cant imagine a future wipeout without BR's now...

Yeah yeah yeah yeah - it took a lil getting used to, but once mastered - its what its all about!

IMO - if you dont like the BR's, think they are an annoyance, then just play 2097 - don't complain! You'll anger us BR Junkies and that can cause problems for you online lol...


(ok peeps - I was kidding)

[Aeroracer]

Couldn't say it better.
wish i could get them out a bit quicker though on some tracks.

i wish you also didnt lose energy for a bodged BR' that didnt come out.:dizzy

[leungbok]

Here a video of TT with one or two br per laps max ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvWyYwMCr9Y

[lunar]

Sweet stuff. I Especially love the Talons with all those PLs.

See, if there were only that many BRs in a race then everyone could be happy (well, almost everyone) Plenty of scope for stunts, but Pure enough for the purists, in most cases anyway ;) Surely SL can find a way to make it so without needing so many mag-strips. Pure was almost there.

There can always be a middle way, a balance, 8 BRs a lap is not so, but races like that in your video are great to me. Well, all are skillful however many BRs, but that`s not the point, the point is the way the game plays, feels and looks.


don't complain! Hey - you`ve got your BRs we traditionalists are entitled to a thread to complain about them if we have to have them ;)

[DISRUPTOR]

A potential issue with barrel rolls is not knowing all the barrel roll locations. In an online race it would be possible for a skilled player to lose to lesser skilled player who was aware of all the locations.
Luckily for some this information is available.

[leungbok]

Nah, skilled players are also skilled to perform brs ! :banzai

[lunar]

I agree with Leungbok. Maybe what you say could be true of shortcuts, but then these also usually require a lot of skill to pull off and there are no easy ones. Some of them require monster nuts to attempt in an online race :dizzy

Also the concept of a "Barrel Roll Location" is not very strong - basically you can barrel roll anywhere that you can get your ass off the ground. If you think maybe you can do a BR in a place then you probably can. Online BRs are limited by energy also, so even if there are some BR locations you don`t know you can easily do more than enough to use all your energy and blow yourself up on most tracks, so I don`t think it`s an issue online. :) I certainly never had any trouble finding enough BRs to blow myself up. ;)

Also, as Leungbok says, doing the BRs is the skill in the first place.

[Frances_Penfold]

Yeah, I'm not worried that BRs diminish the skill requirement of Wipeout-- pilots that are good at airbrakes and side-shifting and creating good lines also tend to be good at identifying and executing BR opportunities :)



See, if there were only that many BRs in a race then everyone could be happy (well, almost everyone) Plenty of scope for stunts, but Pure enough for the purists, in most cases anyway. Surely SL can find a way to make it so without needing so many mag-strips. Pure was almost there.


Makes sense to me :)

Most tracks in Pure/Pulse have a pretty reasonable BR involvement-- then there's Classic Pack 2 with Vohl Square, Altima VII, and Porta Kora. **** on a stick. There's so many BRs in those tracks, it's a pain in the ass in Time Trial and Free Race modes ship energy doesn't recover nearly fast enough to compensate for the BRs needed per lap. Generally I can only race two or so laps before having to set the PSP aside and wait for the ship energy to recover :dizzy

It seems that the Classic II trakcs are really not suited for the BR mechanic whereas other tracks in Pure (including those in Classic Pack 1) are pretty reasonable.

[lunar]

I agree about Pure Speed Laps, however the energy management in Pure`s TTs made it very interesting and tactical deciding which BRs to do because you couldn`t do them all. It was especially true on the classic 2 tracks - and dangerous when finishing the race with 0 pixels of energy left. Also there was an inherent benefit to Perfect Laps - more energy for BRs and faster times. It was good design and I think SL got it right first time. I remember having so many little wall hits on the last right of Odessa Keys and a great run ending in flames with the finish in sight. :bomb

Off-topic, I noticed on Pulse that if you do a time trial in a custom grid the energy behaves like in Pure and doesn`t replenish in the TT. Weird.

Also, Leungbok, you know you missed a possible BR every lap on your Amphi Run in the video? ;) I guess you do know it :)

[leungbok]

And also on talon ;)

[Aeroracer]

i have yet to be able to compete in a proper online race and pull off all the BR's i wanted to do down to energ constraints.


If you are race leader or lagging well behind it is easier as you can get more weapons and absorb..if you are in the race pack ,its more difficult.:)

[Frances_Penfold]

I agree about Pure Speed Laps, however the energy management in Pure`s TTs made it very interesting and tactical deciding which BRs to do because you couldn`t do them all. It was especially true on the classic 2 tracks - and dangerous when finishing the race with 0 pixels of energy left. Also there was an inherent benefit to Perfect Laps - more energy for BRs and faster times. It was good design and I think SL got it right first time. I remember having so many little wall hits on the last right of Odessa Keys and a great run ending in flames with the finish in sight. :bomb


Yep, agreed :)

Depleting ship energy makes whole race TT's interesting-- though IMHO Pure ****ed this up by making BRs take an absolute amount, rather than percentage, of the shield energy-- so that ships with high shields are strongly favored for whole race TTs in Pure. I'm glad that Pulse changed that.

For lap TTs in Pure, the depleting energy is just a huge pain in the ass IMO.

I kinda think that SL could have better distinguished lap vs. whole race TTs in Pure and Pulse. I almost think the games would be better if whole race TTs had NON-replenishing ship energy while lap TTs DID have replenishing ship energy, and that each type of TT had their own mode (Time Trial vs. Free Play / Speed Lap) that kept track of times separately.

[leungbok]

This is an idea (to have 2 ranking tables) ! Instead of suppressing BR for a next wipeout, it can be great to have the actual option of desactivate them and also a TT/sl table with BR available and another without (maybe too mp/sr with and without br). Like this no more complains in the future, lol. And maybe some will compete on both sides, hé hé. ;)

[Frances_Penfold]

I definitely think that split tables are the way to go in situations like this-- it's what other racing games do when there is a technique or strategy that divides the TT community (PRB in Mario Kart, Snaking and "Space Flight" in F-zero, etc.)

:)

[SaturnReturn]

I like that idea. Competing on both sides would be great. Especially for people like me. First I could learn the tracks and the best lines without the barrel rolls, then once I felt I couldn't get much better, I could move onto the barrel roll events. I think it would lead to more people competing at the top level.

[lunar]

Like this no more complains in the future, lol.

In your dreams, buddy ;)

Really I think split tables would be okay and satisfying, but it is nice and more interesting for us all to play together on one table. So really all that could be needed is non-replenishing energy for full race time trials, like Pure, while your shield tops up all the time in Speed Lap to avoid the Pure-style empty shields, which are annoying as Frances Penfold pointed out, and also thereby allowing BR madness (in speed lap) for those who wants it.

I mean I would like to see BRs gone altogether, but I do accept I might not be right all of the time ;) and "anti-BR" people might never get their wish, so just making full race TTs limited in BRs like online races could be enough for me and some others, and make most full TT races look more like Leungbok`s videos above in this thread, and make TTs more smooth and tactical. This way there are enough BRs in the game for those who like them and not too many for those who can tolerate them. Maybe they got it (almost) right first time with Pure but could get it spot on next time with Frances Penfold`s suggestions. :)

[Aeroracer]

howabout a compromise..for BR's lovers and BR's haters

3 barrelrolls allowed per race.

[lunar]

That could be ok, but I think 3 per race would be too few though, if you`re going to have them. 2 per lap would be more like it maybe, and there would be some tactics working out which were the best, but I do remember saying some similiar idea once and someone saying that such ideas are like a doctor prescribing you prescribing you piss-stained trousers as a cure for incontinence. Not sure I agree, but it`s a striking image that has stayed with me over the years. :eek

[Aeroracer]

yes thats fine the key is a set number of BR's are permitted so everyone knows where they stand..kinda middle ground for both lovers/haters of BR's

[SaturnReturn]

It would take a lot of fun and longevity out of the game though. People would learn them very quickly and then that would be that. As it stands, people were still investigating barrel roll tactics and discovering new things a long way after the game was released, and possibly still are. I think that's great. So I would rather see two tables. You could restrict them for online races only, but that would, again take an element of strategy out of it. I'm starting to think it's more all or nothing.

[Aeroracer]

yes i totaly agree. but my idea was a middle ground for both lovers/haters of BR's

i love the game as it is cos i may find the next secret location.who knows....

[lunar]

I see your point about limiting BRs taking away longevity, but it wouldn`t necessarily be so if you analyze what would happen. In many cases it could add to longevity to limit the BRs per lap or race. New BRs would still be discovered and then, rather than just adding to the total BRs in the race and getting to crazy (some would say ridiculous) numbers in a full TT, you would have to study which two BRs (for example) were the fastest to take advantage of on each lap. You would discover the new BR and then have to rethink your race strategy and test it. This is how Pure worked - you had 13 BRs (I think, it was a while ago) in a Goteki TT and for a Phantom race on many tracks you could spend happy hours working out which ones were the fastest to use and when, rather than just adding to the total BRs by doing them all. Accurate flying was rewarded with more shield, more BRs, and Perfect Laps mattered in that game unlike in HD to some extent. Take this example of if you were limited to 2 BRs per lap in HD:

Sol2 reverse would have the two obvious BRs on the uphill left hander and the open section, to begin with. Then Pirhapac (for I think it was he) discovers the turbo BR or just BR outside the track after the first bends - now we have to spend time not only practising the new BR but also working out if it is profitable to ditch one of the older ones in favour of it. It adds to the game to limit them, I think :) With limited BRs the motivation to find new ones does not go away. This is because the new ones could be faster, but it becomes more interesting once they are found, I think. This way those who love to discover new BRs are satisfied too. ;)

[YouAreFubar]

Im liking Frances suggestion of splitting into 2 tables, then you can appease both lovers and haters of the BR. I dont think you can compromise enough to keep everyone happy on this subject to be honest.

[lagoonalight]

I would say no to future games as I don't think they add much but technical oddities to the game where people who have mastered it have an advantage over those that don't even tho they may not be as well rounded a racer. I have heard they tightened the controls so I guess it would be more favorable to me but I really was put off at how I could not get the barrel roll down on the old patches. I went from top 100 times a long time ago to not even caring as I was not going to invest a lot of time in the mechanic itself as I see racing as racing. I don't like shortcuts I and would rather they just not be in the game. My opinion.

[robanddee]

I say yes to BRs, & I like them just the way they are! IMO any half decent pilot should have no difficulty pulling them off, and there's a trade off in any race, as you lose ship energy each time you perform a BR leaving you more vunerable to weapons from other racers, or even crashes into track sides. The more BRs you use - the less weapons you can use, as you have to absorb to replace lost ship energy...or run the risk of being blown to bits!

[jan709]

I think barrelrolls should stay. To me they are an essential part of hd, it would just feel empty without them.

I would also miss the feeling you get when you manage to pull of your first barrelroll on a "not obvious jump" or everytime you discover a new place to do one.