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View Full Version : Sidestep manouever + rant



JABBERJAW
28th November 2006, 05:26 AM
Hate it. Horrible, it makes the game feel like fzero. you need to use these more than airbrakes in order to get the best times. tapping sidestep is faster than lightly turning. Please leave it out of wipeout for ps3. Stop changing the wipeout formula. it was fine in 95, 96, 97 and 98, why does if have to evolve to something worse? why change for change's sake? Why not just improve on what you got? surely the ps2,psp,ps3 can handle the physics of a ps1 game. Enough of the evolution, I want devolution. Why can't developers please listen to what people want(especially the fans of the game).

lunar
28th November 2006, 10:23 AM
I like sideshift. I admit I haven`t played a lot of F-Zero, but from what I have I`d say Pure is no more like it than the old Wipeout games, and I don`t really see the comparison. F-Zero seems quite unrealistic and bizarre in its handling, but Pure seems the most realistic Wipeout handling yet, even if it`s not the smoothest. Sideshift enables you to go faster, it`s difficult to do well, and you can over-use it, slow yourself down and give yourself problems, so I can`t see the problem with it. It`s another thing to think about. In my opinion, it really enhances the skill and feeling of the game, such as when you come to the speed pads across the open section of Sol2, and you use sideshift to chain them together quickly, rather than turning the ship all the time. There are other places where using it too much will slow you down.

It wouldn`t have fitted into the old games, but works well in Pure, and if this is the model for future wipeout handling it should stay. I`d be happy with that.

btw I think it would be good to have all this in the "handling" thread in the Wipeout Future forum. It`s good to talk about these things. :)

JABBERJAW
28th November 2006, 01:37 PM
All it is is just smash the sideshift button on the turn so you don't slide, just like fzero. This keeps your speed up as opposed to just using airbrake and accelerating out of the turn. This game requires the least skill of all the wipeout games(including fusion) to get decent times because of this feature. The game is still good, but it seems every time I play it, I find something stupid about it.

lunar
28th November 2006, 03:04 PM
I don`t see what`s wrong with a feature that keeps your speed up, and which takes practice to use effectively. Sometimes you just use it to correct a wide turn, but it`s so much more than that. You can use it to make the whole turn, or to get a speed pad without changing course so much. Some places are faster with standard airbraking, whether that`s a big hard turn or constant light taps as you go round. Sometimes using sideshift has an element of risk, in that it will take you off the track or into the wall if you get it slightly wrong, but you do it because it`s faster than just airbraking. There`s an element of risk to it and the timing has to be precise.

I really think that in this game, a lot of the time, it`s slower and easier to turn with airbrake only, but faster and harder to turn with sideshift, which is how it should be. The start of 123 Klan is a great example, on the section through the first two speed pads. This is incredibly simple with airbrake or steering only, but you`ll lose up to a second compared to flying it with sideshift. To do this you have to start a very precise line/turning circle as you approach the first speed pad, then the second click of your sideshift has to be exactly on top of the pad, or you`ll just get spat out into the wall or somewhere you don`t want to be. If you get it right, which takes a lot of practice, you`ll just speed smoothly through the section and get the best possible time. That, to me, seems like good game design, because getting the best result requires the most practice. If sideshift wasn`t included in Pure it would be much easier to get the best times, and the whole thing would generally be a lot slower.

Rapier Racer
28th November 2006, 03:07 PM
I also like sideshift, If you are good enough you can avoid bombs with it which is always a plus, what ship are you using that slides around the corner? maybe I'm just used to it now but Triakis doesn't seem to slide an inch

JABBERJAW
28th November 2006, 08:09 PM
I'm mainly worried about ps3 wipeout. Get the pitch back, get the acceleration out of turns correct(like wo3), get rid of sideshift since there is no need for it under real wipeout conditions, I don't care either way about the barrel roll, I kinda like it, but have a barrel roll meter instead or something instead of against your shield. Maybe your ship could be slower than someone else's but have more barrel rolls throughout the race. I was really just agitated that sideshifting is better than braking for cornering. It doesn't look right or realistic(for a wipeout). IT's choppy. If it was just used for dodging weapons that would be great. Oh, and yeah pure is far more like fzero than the other games. no pitch control and the tapping of sideshift to turn is exactly like fzero. Granted that the way it turns is still better, I don't think sony should be copying nintendo for future games when they already had a superior game.

Zerow
28th November 2006, 09:43 PM
I too like the side-step. Even if it can make cornering easier, it still demands skill from the player - do something wrong and you'll be left worse off than if you air-braked through the corner.

But now that I think about it, I don't use the side-step that often, to be honest. I usually manage to get by fine enough with just air-braking.

Asayyeah
28th November 2006, 10:11 PM
Not perfect time for me to talk about Pure due to my 'half-life' psp, anyway i must react about what you say Al : i completely agree with Lunar , Zerow & RR : sideshift needs to stay like it is in Pure.
With Fzero you don't gain speed by doing side-step you only eject players from the track : we can compare that technique to a weapon feature and never to what it is in Pure : a real way of improving your time by a tricky use of it. Because this is really difficult to get that movment perfectly : it's not only tapping twice on an airbrake and get out from a curve at max speed this is more complex than that ( Lunar describes that a bit)

Every wipeout except the first ( lack of knowledge on that one from me) get an extra feature and when you know it & master it you can get really massive highscores :

Wipeout 2097/XL : quickly tapping left & right airbrakes alternatively gives you extra speed or tapping on airbrage while crossing a boostpad
Wip3out : the extra speed wall scraping
Wip3out SE : the extra boost on a jump
Fusion : ( no idea about this one too)
Pure : Sideshift & Barrel RollLast but not the least : the pitch control : i am surprised about you mentionned Al : Pitch up & down works fine for me on Pure and may give you extra speed when doing correctly , ok this is a bit less impressive as it was in 2097 or 3/Se but really it works well for me.

Sausehuhn
28th November 2006, 10:33 PM
I've to agree with both arguments.
I like sideshift somehow, but I really also could live without it. But as lunar said, it's necessary for some tracks to fly right, and that's ok cause it's a part of the game. To use it to get the speed pad just sounds like a good implementation of a maneuver.
But as said: I wouldn't mind to don't see it again if the new tracks are also designed to not use it.

While talking about Pure's handling there's one more thing that worries me a lot more: the handling in general.
Pure is an awesome game, don't get me wrong. And even though you're not that much glued to the track as in Fusion, it's still no classic WipEout handling.
You mainly don't have to turn into a curve that early and you also don't really bounce like you did in the old games (btw: one of the points everybody screamed about when it came to Fusion but now no one's talking about it when it comes to Pure)
Best proof for the handling not being similar to the old one(s): The view. I don't mean the cockpit view here.
If I remember right the outside view changed a lot in the old games.
The ship was going closer to the screen or more away, turned to the left or right half when you did a curve (especially when using brakes) and all that stuff. You really feel the flow of the ships. How the ships inclines when turning, how is slides away slightly. It all just seemed right, like a "hover craft" (in it's literal meaning) would act like.
And that is the feeling I want back.
I want back the "I know that Qirex is hard to handle and I know I will crash after the next few turns maybe, but for that single moment I can steer this brick around the corners without any damage and it suddenly feels so light".
This is the feeling 2097 and Wip3out gave me. Especially 2097.

Renegäde
29th November 2006, 01:03 AM
Yeah i'd love to see a return to the shifting camera angles when taking turns, gives a great sense of speed and feels as crazy as it should when coming out of a high speed bend. As for the sideshift, i'd also agree it was for the better. It added another thing to think about when trying to learn the best route for a time trial run and an extra form of control when dealing with various race situations without becoming over used and over effective.

JABBERJAW
29th November 2006, 01:14 AM
pure doesn't have anywhere near the floaty feeling of xl, 3 or 64. the ship does not come higher off the track when pitching back and forth. The pitch was a huge part of success in the older games and whether you would bottom out or not(not in pure). Arnaud, you must not have played fzero enough. You can turn with just the sidestep manouever and NEVER lose your grip. Even though it was meant as a weapon, it was used like it is in pure. I challenge you to go play terramax on wo3se, and then tell me pure's physics is anywhere near as good as the old games. The game is still good, don't get me wrong, just not as good as a 7 year old game.

Your arguments for this change I completely disagree with

woxl/2097 tapping brakes to go faster. This is a horrible bug in the game. No reason for it, and why does it only work with piranha. I got used to it, but it certainly added nothing to the game that just making the game faster wouldn't do.

wipeout 3 wall scraping This is also a horrible part of the game. I do it to go faster, but it sacrifices nice turning and scraping around turns(ie it sucks you into the wall if you are on the outside going around a turn). It did not do this in xl.

wipeout fusion added zone mode. great mode, a keeper. but added no floaty feel which sucks, and riding the wall which is faster than a perfect turn(yuck)

wipeout pure still no pitch that gets you up into the air higher(ie that super float feeling). Works ok in the air, but not great. Sure it affects your speed, but there is no pitching back, and lightly airbraking around a corner like in the older games. In the old games, when you pitched back, it also slowed you down slightly, but gave you better grip on the turn, not so in pure. Pitching back is awol in pure except just to get higher in the air for a barrel roll. I don't mind the barrel roll, I do like the boost after. I loved the pitch control in the older games of up and over hills having to change at just the right time for maximum speed. The sideshift would be acceptable only with the old physics imo, but also not needed with the old physics. Learning the track to hit the pads without the sideshift is just fine, and requires more skill. Look at the top 5 times on the tracks and you will find a much bigger difference in times on xl than you will on pure due to the difficulty of the game.

So arnaud, what is better 2097 or Pure ? :)

Frances_Penfold
29th November 2006, 05:15 PM
I'm NOT a veteran of the other Wipeout games, however, I personally appreciate the sidestep, for the reasons outlined by others above. IMO, it complements the airbreak move, and creates an interesting challenge to racers-- you must balance the airbreak and the sidestep to optomize your runs. The right balance depends on the track, and your skill as a racer.

Good times! :banzai

Asayyeah
29th November 2006, 08:34 PM
Al : 2097 & XL are the best version of Wipeout imo : that game's got the perfect handling especially when you own a negcon and get used to it cause when you only use 2097 Dpad this game is so different , don't forget that. I always said let's give Pure a negcon and you will see how that game could be as good as 2097 is. I am probably sure we may beat easily times done by Dpad by more than 10 sec on a phantom racetime.

Pure got rank n°2 for me because of his multiplayer capacities.
I raced hundreds of hours and probably more than 1000 hours i-link racing mostly 2097 with Dag for 10 years but i never expected such Fun i had when racing Pure ( through xlink kai) worlwide mates.
The Pure multiplayer dimension magnifyes all the good parts of that game and let me not thinking about the weak point from pure ( lack of Neggie ).

i got a comparison you shouldn't appreciate, Al :cowboy : my airbrake technique from 2097 on Boost pad and the sideshift on a boostpad : actually this is 2 similar technique ( only difference is the 2097's one was hidden to everyone and Pure's one was a bit more of an evidence )

RingoSpoon
29th November 2006, 08:46 PM
I think the sideshift is an excellent idea. I dont beleive you would rather bypass a speed boost or a turbo than sideshift into it, crazy :)

JABBERJAW
29th November 2006, 09:41 PM
Not sidestep it, drive correctly in the first place to hit the pad and not be given an out. Arnaud there is no way you can tell me the physics are anywhere near as good in pure as in xl, 3 or 64. The floaty feel is nonexistent in comparison. I would accept the sidestep only if the old floaty feel is back, and the correct pitch control. Also, I don't think the times would be much faster with negcon due to the pitch not being as important as in the older games. Certainly a little faster though. The reason I liked wipeout in the first place was because of the cool pitch control floaty feel. Now please go give terramax a try and report back. I'd like to hear what you think after that about the physics. Certainly pure is a good game, and the multiplayer is good, and the controls are pretty decent, and the ai is better than before, but the physics are not even close to the first 4 games. I know it is similar to the brake on the turbo pads. As I mentioned before, makes no sense braking on a turbo pad to get a speed boost. Does it do this in pure by the way?

Asayyeah
29th November 2006, 11:25 PM
makes no sense braking on a turbo pad to get a speed boost.
In a way you are right but it's like cutting through buildings or walls : this not make sense too but you & me know that we are using this and we really love that on the previous versions. Pure has banned this technique which is also in a way a new step for being the game more real. Am i angry with that new rule? : not at all ,i am adapting myself to the game.

My banner is that one ' get the fastest you can with what allows the game and don't forget to share what you found :)'

RingoSpoon
30th November 2006, 12:09 AM
When going too fast..

1) getting chased by a quake...speed boost on the inside....sideshift onto it.

2) round a corner and you are heading into a mine - sideshift away from it.

3) with a pesky ship coming up your inside on Kai - sideshift him into the wall!! :):)

JABBERJAW
30th November 2006, 03:53 AM
The wall problem was due to ps1 limitations. Respawning because you go off the track a little to the left or right sucks. You shouldn't respawn until you go below the lowest point on the track where you cannot land anymore. I believe they made objects in pure solid, so there was no reason to respawn when you are high in the air still. To end this, I just want the better physics back, pure's is not as good, and is a dumbed down version of xl,3 with the pitch. keep the sideshift if you want, but please get the physics right.

lunar
30th November 2006, 11:06 AM
Guess we`ll never agree on the physics, Al, and we`ll see what happens. I reckon I`ve put at least 5 times as many hours into Pure as all the other games combined, which means I like it very much, I suppose. That`s the main reason why many of us are at least closer to Arnaud in TT on this game. We`ve been in from the start, and not felt that competing with the master was a hopeless exercise. ;) Pure is easier to get into and to enjoy, certainly, but still very very hard to get the most out of, imo, mainly because of the way ships react to every bump of the track. You have to react and it`s very hard to fly the same lap over and over again. There are always new ways to find more speed, if you can master them. I think this means it`s a better game in terms of difficulty scaling, because you can enjoy the fast classes without needing a special controller or without it punishing you so much, though getting close to Arnaud`s times still requires you to push your limits, use your imagination and practise like hell. And at least, in Pure, you get the best times by playing the game as it was meant to be played, not through exploiting faults in the design, like turbo-scraping, brake-tapping and shortcuts. I don`t miss these, though it still requires massive skill to exploit them, obviously, and if you want to push the game to its limits you should use them. But I would like some of the old 2097 magic back too. Sausehuhn described it well I think. I miss the bounce, the feeling you get on sharp corners in 2097 where the ship`s inertia is fighting the massive acceleration, then you twang out of the corner as if the whole thing was taken by reversing into an elastic band. Maybe not the most efficient way of flying, but fun as hell.:D However I think we should remember Pure is designed for PSP. I think it was perfectly designed for that system, and another PSP wipeout, if there is one, should copy it. I`m not sure that Wip3out and 2097 style games would be really playable for many people on a PSP with that tiny screen, the massive speed, limited control compared to a neggie and the hard, hard walls of the old games. Maybe we`ll see if that`s true if we get the e-versions of the old games for PSP.

@ Ringo Spoon: dirty tricks, sir :naughty ;)

I think if sideshift was ditched, as Max also said, the speed pad placing would have to be carefully thought through. Many of the speed pads in Pure can only practically be used through using sideshift. An example is the one on the left side after the jump/chicane on Altima. Track design might have to be different too. The Chenghou down-spiral without sideshift would be very ugly.

andy
30th November 2006, 05:14 PM
I personally believe that wip3out's handling was perfect and I want those sort of physics back. I don't like sideshifting personally although I can see why you guys like it, I use it many times but wish it wasn't there. It isn't very fluid compared to everything else and I would rather drift like in w3o than jerk like it is now.

JABBERJAW
30th November 2006, 08:53 PM
that is the work I was missing. Fluidity!!

Rapier Racer
30th November 2006, 09:32 PM
I’m just thinking about how terrible Pure would be with old game physics; it would make correct use of pitch control totally necessary, with a d-pad? It’s just too difficult to try and take a corner and use pitch together with the d-pad so if there is no NeGcon type alternative available they can shove the old physics, maybe if this new non rumbling nonsense pad that Sony have can be used effectivly then bring the old style back, otherwise no.


Not meaning for this to sound rude but if you love the older physics so much then play the old games and not Pure

Sausehuhn
30th November 2006, 09:34 PM
It’s just too difficult to try and take a corner and use pitch together with the d-pad

what do you think how I (try to) master Citta?
;)

andy
30th November 2006, 09:45 PM
I’m just thinking about how terrible Pure would be with old game physics; it would make correct use of pitch control totally necessary, with a d-pad?

Oh dear lord! Not the D-pad!!!

What's wrong with a D-pad? I love the D-pad. D-pads rule! I can't stand the analogue stick, especially not the psp's. mini rant over

Asayyeah
30th November 2006, 11:56 PM
It isn't very fluid compared to everything else and I would rather drift like in w3o than jerk like it is now.


that is the work I was missing. Fluidity!!

The fluidity you were both talking about, is existing in Pure with soft touch of sideshift when necessary and you ll be able to get great lines, if you can dl few kai's fight videos you should notice my ship isn't jerking a lot , ok nothing compare to negcon feeling with 2097 but Pure hasn't got neggie compatibility.
Racing only with a dpad and get the feeling i have when practising or fightin' mates in kailand gives Pure my real 'coup de coeur'. :D


what do you think how I (try to) master Citta?
;)
Very good example of using correctly pitch control Maxx and knowing how your craft react on that shitta soil :D

lunar
1st December 2006, 12:32 AM
@ RR/Stephen. I think you made some sound points. I think your point is true. It`s also true that some pitch control is possible in Pure and it can be used effectively, but if any more was required to play the game it would be a pain in the ass at Phantom class. It`s a simple law of nature that you can`t push up and push across at the same time. Pushing diagonals doesn`t work well enough. This is why the old games were painful without a neggie once you were trying to some speed going at the fast classes. There should be no more pitch control than is possible with the controller, and the next game should not be designed so that the best performance can only be with an obsolete controller, the negcon, though I guess there`s little chance of them working on a PS3 anyway. It`s a fact of life that in a few years there will probably be only something like three working negcons on the planet. The best performance should be with standard hardware, so if the sixaxis can deliver effective, simple pitch control it could be more of a factor than in Pure. If not, it would be better to live with less of it, as in Pure, imo. :)

JABBERJAW
1st December 2006, 03:26 AM
Not meaning to sound rude, but I didn't say I didn't like pure. I can give my opinion on a game anytime and do not have to answer to you. IF you feel like attacking me like that, you will get an equal response next time. There is no reason to act like a jackass to people when they give thier opinion(except when they say wipeout would have sucked without DR :) )Why should I have to go back to a 7 year old game when they can make a much better one just by listening to the fans. I just don't want those physics for a new ps3 game. there is no need for it. The dual shock is a fine controller for wipeout 3 if negcons didn't exist. You can definitely get used to it, it's just not as fast. For pure, that is fine with those physics, and if they make another psp game, keep them, that is fine, just don't take another step back. Get the best stuff from each version and put it together for once, rather than change everything. Pure= records, barrel roll, ai. Fusion zone mode wo3 turbo management xl,3,64 physics model. By the way, they could put in the old physics with pure simply by putting a small deadzone on the analog nub. Not the perfect fit, but it could work.

Now one thing I would like to know.

Who did not like quantum redshift, but liked pure
who did not like powerdrome, but liked pure

Lance
1st December 2006, 04:41 AM
.
Cool it, gentlemen.

The use of the phrase ''so much'' within the line ''Not meaning for this to sound rude but if you love the older physics so much then play the old games and not Pure'' multiplies the snark factor even beyond the already unnecessary implied criticism.

Nor was it necessary for this bait to be taken and given back stronger.

Let's not have these incivilities again.
.

Asayyeah
1st December 2006, 03:36 PM
Who did not like quantum redshift, but liked pure
who did not like powerdrome, but liked pure
i like Quantum Redshift a lot : it's a good game with a great floaty things, he is faster than Fusion ( except zone mode), tracks are wide and it's very easy to handle it with the Xbox controlleur

Powerdrome was a ps2 game, right? i don't own a ps2 ( but thinking of buying a new one with ethernet connection ) so no opinion on that one.

lunar
3rd December 2006, 12:10 PM
Al, I went back and re-played Wip3out last night, for a bit, which I admit I haven`t played for over a year (the shame!:redface:). I have to say it really is, as you said, very "fluid" compared to Pure, especially at slow classes, and so long as you don`t hit the walls of course. I don`t think the "fluid" feeling was just because of the fluids I had been drinking either. :) On Wip3out you seem to crack along quite well even without hitting any boost pads. One of the things that struck me about Pure, when I first got it and was playing the slow classes, is that it`s very much a matter of playing "join the speed pads" always. Infact ships never really get moving unless you do. I think I said it already somewhere, but it would be nice for the next game to have less difference between boost speed and natural speed. This would help bring back some of the old feeling.

I love Pure and the way the ships handle in it generally, but with the way speed pads work, and with barrel rolls, it is undeniably a much more slow - fast - slow - fast experience than the old games. Pure improves in a lot areas, imo, particularly in the way the walls work, the fun wobbliness of certain track sections and the way it is so well-matched to the PSP control, but it loses in the smoothness, especially at slow classes. I found them quite entertaining on Wip3out, and had some sense of speed, whereas on Pure there`s no real sensation to them. I think it`s been said before that Pure doesn`t really come alive until you reach Rapier class and the ships start to behave a little bit wild! At fast classes in Pure it does become a fluid sensation once you get the line right and hit the pads most of the time, but you have to work for it. It`s a great feeling when you do, but I don`t really see the point of Vector in Pure, I think it just got the game a bad reputation from reviewers when they switched it on and everything was so slow. Venom should have been called Vector, and then as a consequence there would have been only a need for four classes, and no Flash at all. :)

JABBERJAW
4th December 2006, 02:23 AM
I agree about the scraping. I would like wo3 handling, pure scraping.

JABBERJAW
5th December 2006, 07:40 PM
Now that Iv'e been using the dpad instead of the analog stick, It is a much better game, much easier to turn. I still want the old physics back though.

Silverstream
6th December 2006, 07:51 PM
I find the d-pad much easier to use than the analogue stick in all PSP games I have. Sadly in Fifa 06/07, one can't use the d-pad so thumbs become excruciatingly painful in no time at all!

In Pure, the d-pad is certainly the more accurate of the two, I feel. It's much easier for thumbs to slip off the analogue stick during a tough race in Citta Nuova causing a crash which ultimately loses you that all-important race! :rolleyes: