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stin
13th August 2006, 10:50 AM
Right ASA! no wonder you always broke records or won nearly everytime over kai! because of you videoed the Decension last night so I decided to check your secret weapons and here it comes,

Turbo= 33

Mines=24

Rockets=22

Shields=22

Disruption Bolt=19

Bomb=14

Quakes=6 (surprisingly!)

But overall are he must have fiddled his ship to gain more booster to blow us away!

Well what do you say? c`mon Arnaud fess up?

stevie:D

lunar
13th August 2006, 11:41 AM
LOL. Are your ears burning Arnaud? Well the thing about this Asa is that he seldom misses a weapon pad. He adapts his racing line to make sure he hits them, just like the rest of us adapt our line to hit the speed pads. He gets more turbos because he hits more weapon pads. Since I started making an effort to copy this I stopped losing the weapon war so much. Also, he will frequently miss a speed pad to take the weapon pad if there`s a choice between the two. Passing across the weapon pads just infront of the other ship makes sure they don`t get anything to hit you with, and you get the hit in first. The other thing he does is never hold a weapon for long. So it`s good strategy, really, I think. :bomb

See the low quake stat? I can explain that, possibly. It`s AG-Systems. I will say I know for a (possible) FACT that Triakis picks up more quakes than other ships. I learned this through experience. On an Ascension one night, on 6/8 races I was blasted from the lead by quakes when I was ahead of the Death-machine. When I`ve occasionally flown Triakis I`ve got lots of quakes. Whenever there`s more than one Triakis in a race there are just storms of quakes all the time. One day I will prove this scientifically ;) Bitter, me? Maybe, but I remember when Pure came out and everyone said the AI Triakis was an evil opponent, so maybe it was programmed differently, or maybe I`m just paranoid :(

Yes quakes p*ss me off, but backquakes are a joyous sight to see coming towards me, as there`s nothing better than watching the leader stop and turn around so you can zoom past and win! ;) Hold your nerve and the backquake just feels like a little bump, you hardly notice it. When I see it coming it just looks like a big invitation to win the race. Bring `em on I say. :pirate

q_dmc12
13th August 2006, 11:51 AM
LOL. Are your ears burning Arnaud? Well the thing about this Asa is that he seldom misses a weapon pad. He adapts his racing line to make sure he hits them, just like the rest of us adapt our line to hit the speed pads.
I adapt my racing line to miss both :p

lunar
14th August 2006, 03:57 PM
Long and complex post alert! Yes I am going to prove that either Triakis is possessed by quake-firing demons from hell, or that I am paranoid. ;)

I analysed some stats and found that ships do not appear to get the same weapons pick ups at all times. I`m no expert in statistical analysis, but I say this on the assumption that if you roll a dice almost 20,000 times you should get very close to an average of 3.5. If you don`t then you should assume the dice is weighted. I hope I`m right about that anyway.

I could not include turbos in the analysis, as these are counted in TT and would skew the statistics, so the weapon percentages given are for weapon pickups in single and multiplayer races excluding turbos. Even without turbos, though, they should be very close to equal between all profiles, I think, if you always have the same chance of picking up any weapon when you cross a pad. I don`t think missing the turbos would explain the kind of results I got.

I made an excel work sheet to do the adding up and percentages, then analysed four profiles which I took from the stats thread:

Asa`s euro multiplayer profile: Multiplayer only, mostly Triakis. 18,894 non-turbo pickups.

My euro profile: About 70/30 single and multiplayer, 80% Goteki probably, 15% Van Uber and then a few others. 17,533 non-turbo pickups.

Distrupto`s Asia profile: All single player. A mixture of ships. 5,777 non-turbo pickups.

Dominator`s Euro Feisar Profile, all single player. 23, 676 non-turbo pickups.

I could do with checking another Triakis profile by another pilot, as well as some stats with no TT if anyone has one. I have one from Asa so far, but it may not be worth bothering in the end.

There are several reasons I can see for differences, if they are significant.

-Regional versions of the game. I think this is unlikely. I doubt any re-programming happened between releases in this respect.
-The ship used
-Multiplayer or single player. There are some seeming big differences between Dominator and Distrupto, though, and they are both all-single player.
-The context in the race. Perhaps you are more likely to get a different pickup depending on your race situation. Some of us could tend to find certain situations more often. No evidence for this and it requires and assumption.
-A combination of all or any of the above!


I`m really not sure if the differences are outside the possibility of chance, as I`m no expert in statistics, but they do seem to keep occurring in the same areas. In Quakes, Mines, Bombs and Rockets there are quite unexpected differences in the percentages that these weapons were picked up, whereas Plasmas and others are remarkably even. If anyone sees a huge problem in my maths, like an error, or in my methodology that would explain it, please say! So here (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/../user_files.php?user_id=518) are the results; not amazing, but not quite what you might expect.


see all those Triakis quakes! Get three of those ships in a race and it`s going to be rough, while poor Feisar has only bombs and mines to do its catching up with. ;)

Asayyeah
14th August 2006, 05:48 PM
When you will have the Nobel Price for all your wipeout Pure research, would you be always playing Wipeout ? I hope so :cowboy

This could explain a lot of stuff on Kaď with your weapon per ship theorie.
:+

Dominator
14th August 2006, 11:22 PM
Couldn't agree more lunar, have been mucking around with the menacing Triakis of late (my second choice craft) particulaly TT's and the odd race. Just last night in a race on Sol 2 against the AI, i picked up four Quakes in a row :o in my Feisar sometimes lucky to pick up one.
Oh and great analysis too :D

q_dmc12
15th August 2006, 03:13 AM
IDK, i got alot of quakes this evening with AG remember:redface:

lunar
15th August 2006, 08:08 AM
Dom: Glad you noticed it too! Thanks. :)

Ben: yes I`ve been quaked by little AG a few times, I do remember. :) Also plazma-zapped a few times......:o

If the stats are right, you would still get clusters of quakes in other ships than Triakis, you`d just be more likely to get such clusters in that ship. It may still be chance which weapon you get, just slightly different probabilities depending on the ship. I`ve just seen so many quake-heavy races, with Triakis in, that I started to feel there might be some reason for it. Sometimes you start the evening on Vineta, with three Triakis in, and you just can`t move for quakes blasting everywhere, it seems. But there have still been times in Goteki where I have had some extremely useful quakes. :rock

These stats are far from definitive for what each ship will get, there could be plenty of other factors skewing them, such as the use of different ships in the profiles I looked at, and other factors than the ship affecting what pick up you get in the race. The real differences could actually be larger or smaller than what the stats show. I think it would be too complicated to try and use stats to find out exactly what is happening, but for me it does at least go some way to proving that when two ships pass over a weapon pad they don`t necessarily have the same chance of picking up a given weapon.

Quakes and Plasmas are both small samples, as they are rare weapons to pick up, but Quakes show big differences, whereas plasmas are quite even. The biggest sample is rockets, and this shows the biggest difference of all. I`d say there`s something going on here, but I don`t think it`s possible to find out what, exactly. :)

Rapier Racer
15th August 2006, 10:48 AM
During a recent outing to Citta Nuova I found myself picking up 2 quakes and 2 plasmas all in the same race which is a lot, normally I only get 1 heavy weapon if any during a race after reading this I went back to Citta and again picked up more than my average of powerful weaponry 3 plasmas! And a quake in the one race, couldn’t possibly be track related could it as this doesn’t seems to happen on other circuits

Zerow
15th August 2006, 10:58 PM
Hmmm, Quakes and Plasma Bolts always seem to be a rare novelty for me, no matter which ship I'm piloting and no matter which track I'm competing on. I quite simply cannot recall getting more than one Quake or Plasma Bolt in a single race.

Mind you, I don't really pay attention to these weapon>ship statistics, so I could be getting Quakes more often when I'm piloting a Triakis and am not aware of it. Better pay attention to this next time I'm playing the game.

lunar
16th August 2006, 02:59 PM
I`ve found a way to include turbos in the percentage stats, separating race and TT turbos, so I`ve uploaded to here (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/user_files.php?user_id=518) a new summary, with more profiles and race turbos factored in on all, and also an original spreadsheet for calculating the percentages. It`s not the prettiest spreadsheet you`ll ever see, but to get your own results the only figures you have to enter are the ones in italic; that is B1 (the number of weapon pads stat), and D1 to D20 (the used/absorbed stats for each weapon). Then it will work out your percentages of weapon pickups, and also the percentage that you used and absorbed each weapon.

Although it seems quite possible, I think it`s hard to say for certain that the ships are causing these variations. It looks equally possible to me that it`s caused by the AI responding to race situations and giving you certain weapons at certain times. Your stats would then depend on what situations you got into. AI ships sometimes get suspiciously-convenient weapons, or lots of turbos; maybe some of this AI is programmed into the user-controlled ships. Or maybe even the regional versions of the game effect it. Without starting profiles from scratch on particular versions and using only particular ships, then playing just to get the data you need, I think it`s impossible to say for sure what`s going on. I`m not going to play hours of Vector and Venom just to try and find out :o and at the end of the day none of it alters the fact that it`s still accurate flying and good use of weapons that gets you in a position to win.

The new results with US profiles show a lot less quakes on Asa`s US stats. I presume Triakis is still the main ship on these, with occasional Zone for multiplayer eliminator sessions. The quakes are a lot lower than euro, though. Maybe this points to the AI programming, or maybe there are regional differences. It`s all impossible to pin down, really, except I think there are differences outside the range of chance, and we should just come to our own conclusions why.

This has certainly given me an appreciation of the task that Rob has taken on with the tables. Though it was fun, I was getting headaches with this basic stuff. Also, if I find out the secret of picking up quakes on demand, I will be sure to let everyone know. ;)

Asayyeah
16th August 2006, 05:07 PM
i am gonna enter the euro arcade/tt profile i have ( 50% triakis, 20% zone, 20 % harimau, 10 % icaras ) into your excel document.
With your amazing job you did, wa are able to compare our strategy about absorbing or using weapon on Multi profile and on the regular profile...this is very interesting !

Anyway great work mate :+

stin
16th August 2006, 09:14 PM
Lunar, thank you for the amount of work you put in for us!.

Now I want to say something to Arnaud ! (Moderator or not!) From now on everytime we play on kai!, you are now banned from using Triakis until further notice! I`m hearby for you to chose any ship apart from Triakis!

That`s an order from us!

stevie :D

Dominator
16th August 2006, 10:14 PM
Cheers lunar, excellent job :clap

Zerow
16th August 2006, 10:57 PM
Aye, nice work, lunar. I'll definitely be giving this a go. :+

Asayyeah
17th August 2006, 01:08 PM
everytime we play on kai!, you are now banned from using Triakis until further notice!stevie :D

Seems you recently belong to the new Kai council !
:p
Gonna change my Kai XD Tag then ;)

lunar
17th August 2006, 01:25 PM
Goteki 45 says carry on using Triakis if you like. We won`t protest. We just remember our team motto: "the harder they come the harder they fall". ;)

After that, a kai session is surely needed soon......... :cold

*running away after opening big mouth*