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kaiotheforsaken
6th October 2005, 10:23 PM
well with the release of the new pack and the glorious return of icaras, i've been reading alot of mixed feelings on these boards and in various other places. while everything i've read says that medievil and zone are obviously over powered and i believ take away from teh experience if you use them, there seems to be mixed feelings over icaras. i dont believe Icaras to fall intot eh supership category, true it is fast, oh so very fast, but like all regular ships it still takes practice and care to learn its quirks and it is by no means a sure fire winner. so my friends whats the general board thoughts on the new ship and its status amoung its fellow teams?

G0rT
6th October 2005, 10:33 PM
Personaly, i think that it is just a little to good. This said because I feel the 4 thrust helps it get to high speeds a little to quikly, could have been a little less thrust, maybe a 3, but then it would have almost been a clone of the pirana. But like I said it's not too unfair, its just a little superior in terms of speed.

Seek100
6th October 2005, 11:07 PM
You have to remember that the Piranha in pure is basically what the Icaras was originally in w3o, so a change in it's abilites was expected, also given how high the stats are on the other d/l teams (all of which feature a 5/4/3/3 setup), it was expected that Icaras would be very powerful as it would be probably getting a 5 in speed and a 4 in thrust to make it similar in 'feel' if not completely to it's w3o ancestor. I'm personally fine with it as it's still similar in stats to the other d/l teams, at least they didn't give it 5 and 5 in speed and thrust.

syckls
7th October 2005, 02:27 AM
I don't think the Icaras adds much to my decision-making process at all. Indeed, it's just an inferior Zone, since while Icaras has 2 shield, once you've gotten that low it doesn't make a difference anyway. Then there's the inferior handling.... Now, if it had 5 speed and 5 thrust, that would be something to think about, and I would even have accepted it with 1 shield if it was like that. It would be in the class of Zone and Medievil, only with the best possible speed. It would be the true expert's craft.

Drakkenmensch
7th October 2005, 02:59 AM
Inferior handling, you say? So it has a 3 in handling. Big deal! My Piranha only has a 2, and I make things happen. I vanquished Vineta, mastered Modesto, conquered Citta, and rocked the Ridge :)

The true measure of a pilot's skill comes from his ability to overcome an apparent weakness in his ship, not have the ship pilot FOR him. And once you get over the handling of the Icaras, then its speed and thrust REALLY shine. That purple beauty, my friends, is a truly beautiful piece of engineering.

Not that I'm giving up my beloved Piranha, mind you - just giving props to Studio Liverpool for brilliantly recreating the Elite of AG crafts so well. The Icaras joins the ranks of the best ships with pride.

*goes back to straddling his red brazilian missile Slim Pickins style, yeehaw-ing and swinging around a cowboy hat in his hand*

Piranha Pride!

syckls
7th October 2005, 03:11 AM
When I said inferior handling, I was comparing it to Zone. It's a good ship, but Zone still beats it out when it comes to practicality. The reason why I want a 5-thrust-5-speed/handling ship so badly is because that way there'll be a reason other than shield or entertainment value not to pick Zone.

Drakkenmensch
7th October 2005, 03:14 AM
Sheer practicality dictates that "bigger is better", that much is true. But in the end, even a ship with 5 everywhere wouldn't do much for me.

I would try it, race a few times for fun, feel that it's too easy to rack up wins, get the impression that I'm cheating, get bored with it and go back to my precious Piranha.

The previous cycle of boredom will have taken all of five minutes.

Seek100
7th October 2005, 03:17 AM
Well you shouldn't pick Zone because it's not a team, it's a dull soul-less grey piece of metal, Icaras at least have some history (not a very auspicious history mind you) and no proper team should have 5/5 in any of their stats, the real teams should all be balanced, and they all are. A handling of 3 is very respectable for most teams, and as Drak says many master the game with the Piranha which steers like a cow in a bathtub.

syckls
7th October 2005, 03:18 AM
Which is why I mentioned entertainment value ;)

I too see Zone as cheap, and only ever use it for Time Trial and, by definition, Zone.

EDIT: In fact, my FAQ will probably talk about how Zone's low shield can counter its high stats due to its difficulty in getting through packs.

Seek100
7th October 2005, 03:26 AM
You should also point out to any prospective multiplayer munchkins (i.e. n00bs who are thinking of racing the Zone online) that they will be mercilessly hounded by any veterans and probably wont finish many races for a long time or until they switch over to a proper team. Same deal with the Medievil I understand that gets a lot of flak (pun intended) in the online races.

kaiotheforsaken
7th October 2005, 03:31 AM
the icaras is a wonderful little ship IMO, and i really dont want to see it get a zone like reputation (kinda why i made the thread). but even though the ship has been out less than a week, i'm already developing an attatchment to it, much like the one our friend drakk has to his precious pirahna.

G0rT
7th October 2005, 03:36 AM
Don't get me wrong, the icaras isn't very cheap(not like the zone or medevil), as it does have it's draw backs. I just think it's speed is a little unballanced when compared to the rest of the ships in pure, not over powering, just a little bit uneven.

eLhabib
7th October 2005, 11:34 AM
I can tell you the big difference between the 'superships' (zone and medievil) and an Icaras.
When I play online and I see a zone or medievil on the starting grid I'm thinking 'DUH, MORON. You just wait... :twisted: '
When I see an Icaras on the starting grid I'm thinking 'OOooOOh, shiny fast thingy 8O must.try.to.catch. :D '
It's just a matter of reputation really...

Distrupto
7th October 2005, 12:11 PM
Dont mind me for taking on a giant army of Icaratics, but until I can get my hands on it, I hate Icaras. A ship with too much raves and hype which can be blammed by a single quake. Newbs will download it and get no real skill and not even be able to unlock Medieval. Plus, PIRANHA & AURICOM R THEEE BEST!

When I see a 2-shield thing like AGs on the grid, I think "Ha, he tries aggresiveness, hes gone." When I see a supership in front of me its "Youll not last unless you can handle and thrust well enough to get away." :wink:

edit by Lance:two unanswered posts by the same person combined into one. READ THE GUIDELINES.

lunar
7th October 2005, 12:39 PM
well the conditions are rougher than they need to be in this particular teacup; which is one way of saying there is no "supership" in Pure anyway. Zone and Medievil are strong in particular areas, and may each be the fastest ships on certain tracks, but they`re by no means superships.

You can test this. Take your favourite ship (a real wipeout team) and fly a smooth PL of Vineta K, rapier, hitting every speed pad, with a turbo hit down the finish straight. You should get a time around 24 seconds. Then take zone or medievil and try to beat it - if you miss just one speed pad you`ll have no chance. One wobble or unnecessary steering correction and you`ll have no chance.

If you carried out a similar test in WO3, with any ship v Icaras, or in 2097 with any ship v Piranha, the supership would win easily, as these ships are in a completely different class to the other ships in the game(s). You can`t say this for the so called "superships" in Pure.

Zone in Pure really is not that much quicker than the other ships if flown well. It`s perhaps easier to go fast in than some other ships - but it`s fastest possible times are certainly not in a different league compared to the other ships. When I`ve raced 1 on 1 against good Zone players there are marginal differences - fractions on each corner, fractions in acceleration. Sure it can be a pain in the ass to lose a bit on a corner when I took it just as well as the other guy - but it`s not much and it`s up to me to overcome it, fly better or shoot the guy, leave a bomb for him on the next lap, not moan about the ship he`s using. As is often said all its advantages are worth nothing in a busy multiplayer game - u see good pilots giving up on zone and medievil in these situations - unlike the old Icaras and Piranha they aren`t fast enough to compensate for their weaknesses. If these so called "superships" were good enough to justify the title people wouldn`t give up on them.

Also Zone does not make everything easy, as has been said. Exostra Rapier TT is one of the toughest - whichever ship you use for this you won`t get gold if you make any mistake. You will have to really think about how to get more speed on this track to make the time. If you fly around banging the walls you`re not going to get a medal in any ship.

Another thing to remember about the stats is (and I think someone from SL once confirmed this in a post) that two ships with the same speed stat are not necessarily the same speed on the track. Qirex, Van Uber and Assegai all have speed of 3 - but Qirex is faster of the 3 at top speed, imo. Van Uber and Assegai both have thrust of 4 - but Assegai has better acceleration. We should not judge a ship entirely by it`s stats.

Sorry for the long post - but zone and medievil are not superships, imo, they`re just ships with good speed and acceleration, but are not in a different league to the others at all.

Icaras isn`t a supership either - again it has strengths in certain areas but it`s not going to win races for you or get amazing times for you - you`ll have to fly it very well to win anything at all. It`s bark (stats) is better than it`s bite, imo.

*phew* :wink:

eLhabib
7th October 2005, 12:49 PM
+1

although you will have to admit that this 'maniefrizzle' guy last night definitely WAS a lot slower after he switched from medievil to vanuber. I wouldn't say that medievil get's you better times in TT, but the lightningfast acceleration sure does help evading the pack in multiplayer. But then, again, you'll have to survive it...

lunar
7th October 2005, 01:04 PM
for sure. What good acceleration gives you is a reduced risk of a bomb in the face - particularly at the start and coming out of bends in the race. That`s why I gave up on my Qirex, which I`m still pining for. I even took her for a test drive last night..... but it`s not there. :cry: :? He wasn`t all that much quicker in Medievil - and he`ll get better in the Van when he gets used to its quirks. :wink:

Drakkenmensch
7th October 2005, 02:39 PM
There's a clear reason why so many people keep insisting on piloting Zone and Medievil in online multiplayer - I like to point the finger squarely at beginner guides written BY beginners:


---Zone

Zone is a great vehicle for passing time trials. Awesome handling, speed, and
thrust means that you can rip up the track…and in time trials shield doesn’t
matter. Also, heads up or in a small multiplayer game, Zone will smoke the
competition.

---Medieval

A cool looking vehicle but that’s about it. Zone is better for time trials, and
with a 1 shield you don’t want to take Medieval onto the track. However, heads
up or in a three person race, Medieval will kick ass.

---Multiplayer; For multiplayer games follow the following logic. Single Race,
use Zone or Medieval, with Assegai, Quirex, or Harimau as second choices. For
Tournament use Assegai, Quirex, or Harimau. UNLESS, you are an advanced player
in which case Zone or Medieval should be your first considerations.

Clearly, we have someone here who has zero experience in racing crowded competitions populated by adrenaline pumped, vicious, brutal veterans. On paper, his theory sounds good, but it's unfortunately contaminated by a single flaw that invalidates everything from that point on.

Anyone care to guess what that is? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Human players will NOT behave like AI pilots.

A human pilot, especially the wipeout maniac type, has better racing lines, uses barrel rolls as much as he can get away with it, has emotional ties to his craft and in a few cases seems able to pilot with his eyes closed by using the Force. He can aim plasma shots by sheer intuition to score direct hits even in the Citta Nuova corkscrew, has supernatural knowledge of when to drop bombs so that they hit the guy sneaking up without using the rear view and will mercilessly pound on everyone in sight whenever he grabs a good weapon. He can take the Blue Ridge twisted final chicane BETTER than the autopilot. He will drop bombs behind corners, on top of double speed pads and at the start of the sections without guard rails to make you plunge off the track. He knows which leaps have a spot where you can drop bombs to knock off the track an unsuspecting opponent even if the section looks 100% safe to jump through. He will wait for you to be in a curve to hit you with weapon fire, drop bombs in the best through-line of the Karbonis chicanes and turn his craft around to fire a reverse quake onto incoming traffic. (I'm looking at YOU, eLhabib!)

Most of all, unlike even the complete total bastard that is the computer controlled Triakis, veteran pilots ENJOY taking shots at an easy target to destroy. They LOVE hearing the words "Contender Eliminated", and what better way to do so than to pummel with plasma an opponent whose shields they know to be just as resilient as pressure-molded plastic? I've said it before and I'll say it again - Zone and Medievil are made of cardboard and duct tape, and we KNOW it. We veterans see an origami ship on the starting grid and mentally paint a little red bullseye on it.

Be warned everyone. I love seeing ships explode, and those two are the easiest way to get my fix of Contender Eliminated.

Sausehuhn
7th October 2005, 03:11 PM
yeah! yeah, yeah!

definitely 100% agreement.
let's keep up the spirit and let's hope we won't see any medievil, zone, branded ships and all this crap again in the next WipEout... oh no, let's hope we won't see them after you said that, Drakk.

Gimme some real ships, I wanna speed :twisted:

Distrupto
7th October 2005, 03:25 PM
This beginner has absolootly no experience. I NEVER bring Zone or Medieval to races, I hate seeing my own ship explode.

However, I dont think any of us dont like seeing their targets destroyed. My, my most recent kill, the AG Sys which went down yesterday was great fun. FEISAR dropped a bomb but none of us saw it since the undersea sections of Vineta K r considerably darker than the middle straight. I unleashed the Wrath of Thee Quake which unceremoniously flung Agsy into the Bomb and finished him off. Woohooo! Whenever I get a Plasma Bolt and know that Medieval is playing, even if im ahead, I slow till he passes, stay behind him till I find a good straight. Then, hit the button, charge up the bolt, shoot off and BOOM. Undead sent back to where they came from.

But I dunno y everyone here is anti-Zone/Medieval. Sure, it doesnt help ur skill at all, but take a lot to unlock.

lunar
7th October 2005, 03:32 PM
hear hear, Sausehuhn

Zone and Medievil occupy the position, stats wise, which should be occupied by other, real Wipeout ships. There should be paper ships with great thrust or speed (perhaps not so good, but anyway.....), and these should be real wipeout ships not artifical ones like Zone, or names of 20th-21st century computer games (!) like Medievil. Medievil stole AG Systems stats, to me, and that`s one of the very few mistakes made in this game. 8)

Hellfire_WZ
7th October 2005, 03:43 PM
I don't usually belittle the efforts of writers in the same game category as myself, but I read that guide before writing mine and I have to say I thought it was a comedy masterpiece. If anything it gave me more incentive to complete mine ASAP just so I could enlighten the poor souls.

Drakkenmensch
7th October 2005, 03:53 PM
Piranha – “I’m winning, I’m winning…wall!”
Stats:

Speed 5/5
Handling 2/5
Shield 3/5
Thrust 2/5

Analysis:

The Piranha is everything that you don’t want in a vehicle. Speed that you’ll
never use, inability to take the tough courses, no way to get to it’s top
speed, and more shield then you’ll use.

Final word:

Avoid it like the plague.

*snickers uncontrollably*

I don't usually like to trash other players unless it's done in good fun and I take trashing back, but I'd LOVE to take that guy on the track and SHOW him just how useless the Piranha REALLY is.

Sausehuhn
7th October 2005, 03:55 PM
hm... somebody should delete this guide...

eLhabib
7th October 2005, 04:17 PM
although I have to highly doubt there is just ONE other pilot out there who can pilot a Piranha as well as you do, Drak! I know I for one couldn't! 8)

Distrupto
7th October 2005, 04:24 PM
PIRANHA ROCKS! Whoever wrote this guide has wrote everything opposite of reality! He is a beginner all right, he cant control a Piranha. Pity.

If Drak takes him on in a speedy circuit, Zoney will get the boost in thrust but have to deal with dodging a hail of wacks, which will put him behind. Then the moment he gets ahead, it will have to b on a corner, since Piranha blazes straights. He'll get a heavy bombardment on the way out and will have to go off racing line a lot to recharge his paper shield. Then a powerful Quake or Plasma and ...

randomperson1
7th October 2005, 04:58 PM
Piranha and Icaras aren't superships. They're just in the 'Fast' category.

Jittery-Joe
7th October 2005, 04:59 PM
*Claps*
Damn straight

Seek100
7th October 2005, 06:09 PM
Feisar – “A great drive, but not a winner.”
Stats:

Speed 2/5
Handling 5/5
Shield 3/5
Thrust 4/5

Analysis:

This is a solid vehicle. Great handling, great thrust, good shield, but no
speed. This vehicle is a solid beginners vehicle. But that’s who it’s for,
beginners, people who don’t understand the game, feel like they need practice,
or just want a good car to take on a few practice runs. Sounds good but it’s
not. This car has great handling, and if you get used to that, when you play on
the rougher tracks with higher speed and a lesser vehicle handling wise, you’ll
get smoked. Don’t play Feisar because it’s bad, don’t play it because it’s not
a vehicle you can win with above Vector level.

Final word:

Don’t even touch it. It’ll end up being a hazard because you won’t learn how to
really drive and take the best lines.

S33k joins Drak in snickering, then losses control and crak's up laughing uncontrollably pointing at the screen tears streaming from his eyes.

Well not really but it is a funny little thing isn't it? I apparently will be unable to win a race above Vector class. Well that's kindof funny because my profile has 227 medals on it, all of them gold, every Vector, Venom, Flash and Rapier medal and about half of the Phantom medals so far, only the Gamma/Delta/Classic2 time trials done in the Zone ship because I ran out of patience with the ridiculous time constraints, every other medal was achieved with a Feisar. And aside from the Gamma/Delta/Classic2 time trials I will finish the rest of the game with my beloved Feisar, and when I eventually get a wireless connection and start playing multiplayer I fully intend to show that fool just how 'bad' (nice choice of adjective there, I can see his education was top notch :roll:) the Feisar can be.

This dumbarse needs to be taught a serious lesson about how he's ruining so many people's chances of actually getting good at this game, the Feisar is an easy ship to learn, but a very tough ship to master, just like all the teams, it's handling has to be utilised effectively, you can't just swing around all the turns at the last second because your poor racing line will mean you actually take the bend slower, it's lack of speed is a liability, but just like the Piranha's poor handling it is a liability that can be overcome if you just show your craft (not car like that mongoloid called them) some love, learn the racing line perfectly, take every speed pad and you will be able to win.

The future is Euro!

eLhabib
7th October 2005, 06:21 PM
To me it seems like the individual who wrote this hasn't even bothered to ever try and fly in a Feisar - he probably just 'assumed' his review based on the ship stats...

hm, not really a professional approach to writing a GUIDE :x

Hyper Shadow
7th October 2005, 07:27 PM
Has anyone read the part about control? He says something like 'if you can't fly with the analogue nub, then you really shouldn't be playing this game'

I'd quote it exactly, but I believe its getting off topic now and my eyes really can't take that much on-screen diorreah.

Besides, its GameFAQ's what do you expect, its ery hard to find decent FAQ-age.

syckls
7th October 2005, 08:39 PM
Besides, its GameFAQ's what do you expect, its ery hard to find decent FAQ-age.

Blasphemy! There is some kickass stuff in there. It's mainly in the In-Depth guides and the really small version 0.1 FAQs that you find all the crap.

Every ship has a different style that you must adhere to in order to wield it with maximum effectiveness. Take the Zone, for example. Despite its impressive stats, its 1 shield requires the user to be extremely proficient with combat as compared to the average Triakis pilot. This is because you need weapons to pass your opponents effectively, and at the same time they will attack you. Most of the time, Zone will be damaged more from a successful pass than Triakis will. At the same time, different handling ratings require different approaches to turns. The Feisar has much more flexibility in how it can turn in order to maintain top speed than the Piranha does. Piranha pilots must strive to maintain a straight course as often as possible, and generally cannot afford to turn back and forth in an attempt to dodge a weapon. Doing so would be self-defeating. Incidentally, being familiar with each craft's weakness can help you against it in both combat and general racing. For example, the weakness of the Piranha is IMO its thrust. If you had a choice between attacking either a Feisar or a Piranha on a straightaway, the obvious choice is the Piranha. This is not only because of recovery times based on thrust rating for each craft, but because the Piranha has more to gain from survival due to its high top speed. The fact that I'm attacking Piranha here really is a testament to Drakkenmensch's skill. The fact that he has mastered such a ship shows his Wipeouting skill.

But someday, I will get that goddamn wireless adaptor working. Then, oh yes, then....

Seek100
7th October 2005, 08:42 PM
My god, that person knows about f**k all about wipEout it's fairly obvious. I never touch that diabolical analog-nub, it's useless for pitch control, the only analogue device that should be used for a wipEout game is a neGcon. I actually didn't bother to read the whole thing, after what Drak posted I assumed there'd be some snide remark about my beloved Feisar in there and wanted to see what it was.

In my experience the guides on Gamefaqs tend to be a little too, informal, I want a guide to a game to be professional, not sound like it was written by a stereotypical 12 year old trying desperately to be 'funny' and 'cool' :roll: lamers, the vast majority of 'em.

Edit: my post was directed at Hyper Shadow talking about control but syckls beat me to the reply button. :)

Purist
7th October 2005, 08:44 PM
C'moooon... Feisar is rubbish (for want of a better word).

Auricom does it for me or if were talking specials..... WIRE05 or PUMA1

kaiotheforsaken
7th October 2005, 08:56 PM
no ship is "rubbish" (with exception an excpetion or 2) especially if it has been there since the beginning. you may suck at flying it, but feisar is extremely formidable in the hands of the right pilot. it may look like a beginngers ship, but it takes an ace to master it.

Seek100
7th October 2005, 08:56 PM
I'm sorry but WTF!? That is just plain and simple trolling there, have you read the guidelines Purist!?

No team in this game is 'rubbish' just because you don't like them, I dislike Auricom quite a bit, but I'm not going to say they're rubbish, I just happen not to like them.

Unless you're going to give a reasonable opinion why you think Feisar are rubbish then your comment really has no purpose other than intentional antagonisation of other forum members as far as I can see it.

That sort of 'I think X is rubbish you're all stupid for liking it' crap really irritates me :x

Drakkenmensch
7th October 2005, 09:05 PM
If there's one thing that's even more disconcerting than his apparent substitution of actual flight experience for his far less reliable theoretical number crunching, it's the blindingly obvious contradictions he put in his document.


If you learn one thing from this section it’s that a combination of handling
and thrust is the most important in the game. Handling causes you to take turns
easier and maintain speed, and thrust means that you can regain any speed you
lost quickly. A vehicle with low handling and thrust will be fast on the
straight-aways but unfortunately the areas which allow for full speed are few
and far between. But most importantly, a car with low handling and thrust will
slow down more on turns, take them wider, possibly hit a wall, and will not
regain it’s speed before the next turn when it’s knocked back down again on the
speedometer. While the car with high handling and thrust can maintain it’s
speed, take the fastest line, and work up to a higher speed before the next
turn. Which would you rather have?

So following his logic, what should the best ships be? Feisar and AG-sys, right? Feisar has 5/4 handling and thrust, while AG-sys has 4/5. Sounds unbeatable if you follow that quote's advice.

But IMMEDIATELY after writing that, he writes...


Feisar -{...} Don’t even touch it. It’ll end up being a hazard because you won’t learn how to really drive and take the best lines.

AG-sys - {...} Don’t touch it. Too slow for the win.

Sooooooo... it only takes him one paragraph to go from saying "speed means nothing" to "without speed you'll achieve nothing."

I'm sorry, but I've faced some people piloting Feisar and AG-sys who gave me some serious competition, beating many times even on fast tracks like Sol2!

If you're going to write a guide for the net on ANY game, make sure it's one you've played through and through, backwards and forwards, one you could deconstruct and rebuild from memory alone. Hellfire's guides to Pure and Fusion are ideal examples of superior sources of information, and I'll recommend them to anyone who asks.

My personal recommendation? Go with the craft that's right for YOUR style. Pick the one you love, and it will love you back.


Addtional comments based on other posts made while I was typing:

Everyone who's known me since I arrived on the forums knows that there's no love lost between me and Triakis. They've blasted me off the track and out of the water more times than I care to remember, but I will never belittle the potential of the silver tank. As flying bricks go, if I had to leave Piranha, Triakis would be a natural choice for me. Hellfire is himself a die-hard Triakis fan, and I salute his ability to control it.

If anything, Triakis and Piranha could almost be brothers as their stats are so alike, much like Feisar and AG-sys. I even took a little ride in a Triakis craft last night, just for fun. I have to say I enjoyed it, as it fit my style like a glove.


Piranha Pride!

Purist
7th October 2005, 10:23 PM
I'm sorry but WTF!? That is just plain and simple trolling there, have you read the guidelines Purist!?

No team in this game is 'rubbish' just because you don't like them, I dislike Auricom quite a bit, but I'm not going to say they're rubbish, I just happen not to like them.

Unless you're going to give a reasonable opinion why you think Feisar are rubbish then your comment really has no purpose other than intentional antagonisation of other forum members as far as I can see it.

That sort of 'I think X is rubbish you're all stupid for liking it' crap really irritates me :x

Chill Seek100 it's a GAME :lol: ... and it's just my humble opinion... if you don't like it then fine, if it makes you feel bigger to slag me off then do so, but don't throw your toys outta your pram over it... jeez 8O

You dislike Auricom, fine, I respect that... your reasons?

kaiotheforsaken, I have over 250 gold medals so I'd like to think I don't 'suck', I just don't like Feisar, it's too slow and besides, it's damn ugly... OK :roll:

Now can't we all just play nice?

kaiotheforsaken
7th October 2005, 10:30 PM
i never said you "sucked" in general, i said you must suck with feisar, theres a difference lol :lol:

Seek100
7th October 2005, 11:31 PM
Purist, don't presume to think that you're being all mature and telling me 'it's a GAME', it does not excuse your previous post which I consider to be a mild form of trolling, you did not say the Feisar was rubbish in your opinion you said it was rubbish as if this was gospel truth, without a qualification for why it should be considered rubbish.

You'll notice that at no point in my post did I insult you as you seem to think I did, nor did I 'throw [my] toys outta [my] pram over it', my entire post was conducted in a reasonable and civilised manner aside from the initial 'WTF' which was I feel quite justified, though I don't consider 'F' to be a strong expletive so your mileage may vary on that point.

In response to your querry I dislike Auricom for 2 reasons, the more substantive is their stats, their flying style really, they are built like a 'tank' type craft, similar to the Qirex in wipEout/2097/w3o or the Triakis in purE, I generally dislike that kind of craft as once you are good enough not to crash with it you tend to win races easily because you can simply absorb more of a pummeling, I prefer the agility and grace of the 'lighter' craft such as Feisar, AG-5Y5 and the w3o version of Assegai (though I disliked the w3o Assegai styling).

The second and more superficial reason I dislike Auricom, is their styling. I haven't actually liked the appearance of an Auricom since 2097, the angular and sleek design they had in 2097 remains one of my favourite wipEout craft designs, I feel that the blocky, clunky look they introduced with w3o was a bad move and the assembly of lego bricks in Fusion is best left unmentioned, I had hoped purE would restore some of their 2097 appearance, while it is a great improvement on both the Fusion and w3o incarnations of the ship, it still features the clunky look too much for my aesthetic tastes.

That is in a nutshell why I dislike Auricom, if you had said something along those lines for Feisar when you posted the whole argument never would have happened, you've explained in your last post some of your reasons for disliking Feisar, though I'm genuinely interested in why specifically you dislike the stylings of the Feisar, I'll admit it's not my favourite of their designs, but I've never trully disliked it.

We can all play nice, and we were playing nice until you made your previous post, hopefullly we can all avoid making sweeping statements about teams we don't like (except for the Zone and Medievil of course :wink:) or chucking about insults and everything will be fine.

Hellfire_WZ
7th October 2005, 11:39 PM
One huge thing this writer seems to have forgotten is that everyone has their own preferred racing style, whether it be biased towards handling or speed. You can't give each craft a rating and then present it as solid fact unless that is truly the case, here we can clearly see it isn't. That's what I've done in my guide and what the writer of the Craft FAQ has also done; we have provided the stats and pros/cons of each craft and left it for the reader to determine what's best for them. I also noticed how he slates every craft that has a low handling rating. What's the betting he's never heard of airbrakes? They practically render handling redundant when used skilfully.

In fact I was particularly shocked at his comments on the Triakis. More shield than you'll ever need? I've been in more than my fair share of races where the AI has suddenly gotten medieval on my arse and smashed my shields to pieces. Any other craft would have exploded there and then, but my high shield stat allowed me to recover fairly quickly. I'd like to see his beloved Zone/Medievil craft stand up to the sort of punishment that would nearly cripple a Triakis...

Distrupto
8th October 2005, 11:31 AM
They wouldnt. Theyd be blown sooooo hard that they would fly from Vineta K to Sinucit, passing Chenghou, Modesto and the Ridge on the way and exploding midair with their ashes eventually raining over Makana(exaggeration, but sounds cool). :lol: 8O :mrgreen: :guns

Zone has more of a chance of going since Medieval's higher thrust reduces chances of being mined or bombed and allows u to dodge disruptor bolts, rockets and plasma bolts without losing that much speed. But Zone is a paper boat which belongs in a pond(if there r any Zone fans here, this is only MY personal opinion). 8O :wink:

Drakkenmensch
8th October 2005, 01:13 PM
Higher thrust doesn't really make much of a difference for AVOIDING weapon fire, though it does make it easier to recover from a crippling hit that brings you to a halt.

"More speed than you'll ever use" is quite wrong. He probably spends most of his time ramming walls, which would prevent him from accelerating to full speed, but I don't seem to have this problem.

"More shields than you'll ever need" is equally wrong. Even with shields at 3, I can't count the number of times I heard "Energy Critical" multiple times within the same race and was left with a pixel-thin energy bar. A shield rating of 5 would have been very useful.

"Inability to take the tough course" - what does a gold for Phantom Karbonis tell you?

The guy needs a serious "Piloting 101" course, what can I say?

eLhabib
8th October 2005, 01:22 PM
you know what, I think i will e-mail this guy and direct him to this forum page - he simply needs to know of his omission :D

Distrupto
8th October 2005, 01:31 PM
Go, eLhabib! Bring him here and show him what has been said about him. We shall see wat he has to say in return. :twisted: :guns

This "no soup for you" guy will have to see what he has said himself in others point of view.

Megatron42
10th October 2005, 10:37 PM
I think we can at least agree on that last point! This faq sux.

Dude, I could feel the heat coming off the monitor reading this thread. Come on, guys. We're wipeoutzone. We're better than flame posts, am I right?

Drakkenmensch
10th October 2005, 10:45 PM
Agreed. Time to move on!

Seek100
10th October 2005, 11:25 PM
Indeed, I cheerfully withdraw any insults directed at the faq writer, the technical comments I made about his/her faq still stand though.

Dominator
11th October 2005, 04:11 AM
I have piloted the Feisar since the original Wipeout (95) and all the other installments of the game!!!! Am up to 206 golds in Pure, the Feisar in the hands of a skilled pilot can and will hold it's own and then some.
Leave my beloved Feisar alone :evil:

SOup
21st October 2005, 06:29 PM
To be perfectly honest you guys are taking my tips and applying them to a style of gameplay completely sepearate from what was available at the time and what I intended to address.

My guide was intended for people who were:

A) Picking up the game for the very first time and learning how to even pilot a ship

B) Attempting to find the right fit for time-trials and getting to Purist level

My guide does not even begin to touch multi player with humans or serious racing.

Of course much of the material is flawed when you look at it if you were entering a race with experienced humans. That's not what the guide was meant to address! I wouldn't follow the tips in my guide if I was entering a race with any of you. Of course I would pilot a ship with more shield and take a hit to handling because as a few of you said, the AI sucks with weaponry and humans are viscious bastards.

My guide was for beginners. You cannot apply the material to experienced human vs human racing.

Thank you for the criticism on the core material and writing style. Also, thank you to the person who pointed out a contridiction in my wording.

Again, you have to view my guide in terms of complete n00bs or somebody attempting to achieve Purist level vs. AI. Not in the terms of multiplayer.

- SOup

Hellfire_WZ
21st October 2005, 06:50 PM
I think what caused the most fuss was the exaggeration of the flaws of each craft. A good way to improve on this would be to explain the flaws of each craft and what level of skill/technique would be required to overcome this rather than simply write it off completely. If I was a beginner looking at this guide I would immediately think that this would apply throughout the game and would not even look at the other craft. Try to explain what makes the craft so appealing to the beginner group or how you would need to adapt to make other craft easier to handle. For example, for Triakis you can explain how its low handling/thrust would definitely not suit those new to the game, but then go on to explain how you would need to adapt (sideshift and airbrake use in this case) to take full advantage of the craft's benefits (good top speed and enough shield to ignore most weapons and to barrel roll to your heart's content). Have a look at the entries in my FAQ as well to see how I've gone through the pros/cons of the craft, it might help you a bit with the layout.

Hope that helps a little. There are certainly a high number of people who find this game incredibly difficult and a beginner's guide is a good idea, but try to encourage your readers to eventually improve enough to handle the harder craft rather than writing them off, it'll give the wrong impression.

Megatron42
21st October 2005, 07:47 PM
Whether your FAQ is upheld by certain WZ members or not, let me be the first to welcome you to the forums, on behalf of those higher up that are more in the position to do so!

SOup
21st October 2005, 08:52 PM
Thanks Hellfire.

Yes, I agree that possibly a combination of my own opinions and exaggeration may have caused more of a fuss than is good for a Guide.

But to anybody who was previously ragging on my doc, please, let me know what you have to say now.

- SOup

Drakkenmensch
21st October 2005, 08:55 PM
Okay, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing you for the sake of it, but I have to point something out:

My guide does not even begin to touch multi player with humans or serious racing.

[...]

My guide was for beginners. You cannot apply the material to experienced human vs human racing.

[...]

Again, you have to view my guide in terms of complete n00bs or somebody attempting to achieve Purist level vs. AI. Not in the terms of multiplayer.

---As an advanced player you should have a good feel of when you do and don’t
need certain weapons, and you should also have a sense of when to pay attention
to your shield. As you learn which weapons can be discarded you can choose
vehicles with a lower shield rating and a higher score in a more useful area.

---Multiplayer; For multiplayer games follow the following logic. Single Race,
use Zone or Medieval, with Assegai, Quirex, or Harimau as second choices. For
Tournament use Assegai, Quirex, or Harimau. UNLESS, you are an advanced player
in which case Zone or Medieval should be your first considerations.
I don't want to sound like you're contradicting yourself yet again, but I have no other way of finishing this phrase.

eLhabib
22nd October 2005, 12:34 AM
First off, SOup, I have to say I highly respect the fact that you indeed showed up here to stand behind your FAQ and take the criticism (and bashing) as a ways of progress. Props! However, even if your FAQ was only for total 'n00bs', you still gave them the wrong 'help', in my humble opinion. I see sooo many of them every day in multiplayer games on xlink, who think that they can win a race with zone or medievil - as your FAQ encourages them to do, even in multiplayer (as Drakkenmensch pointed out above). Then they get SERIOUSLY owned, and more often than not blown out of the race, which in turn discourages them so much that they eventually drop the game, instead of trying to learn the other teams, because your FAQ stated that those were inferior. In fact, it is my strong belief that only one who gets to grips with the pros and cons of each team can eventually master the game, on- and offline. (of course this doesn't necessarily apply to people who are experienced in previous wipEout games, in which case they wouldn't need your FAQ anyway). I strongly recommend - like Hellfire pointed out - that you provide an in-depth look on each team, so that every 'n00b' can find his vehicle of choice for himself, and doesn't rush for zone or medievil right away, just because you dismissed some of the other teams - like FEISAR - as being 'useless'. Everyone has different racing styles and preferences, please take that into account!
cheers,
eL

SOup
22nd October 2005, 01:37 AM
Drakkenmensch,

That FAQ is a few months old. Seems I have forgotten exactly what went in. Perhaps I was out of line suggesting ships for multiplayer at all. *opens mouth inserts foot* :roll:

Again, I stand by the statement that this FAQ has a focus on learning how to pilot, time trials, and AI racing.

Perhaps the FAQ is due up for some changes or a disclaimer on it's intent.

Thanks to all of you who offered constructive criticism. And even for those of you who flamed and bashed, in addition to blowing me, you can pat yourselves on the back becuase you still only served to strengthen my work.

- SOup

Drakkenmensch
22nd October 2005, 02:00 AM
I'm sorry if my earlier comments might have seemed harsh.

I will look forward to reading your improved FAQ. :D

SOup
22nd October 2005, 02:44 AM
Hey boys,

I basically made the following changes:

- I threw out the tips for multiplayer.

- Whenever I would say avoid a craft, I changed it to say that it's an advanced craft and not good for beginners.

I also think that you guys missed the part where I mentioned that Zone and Medievil should only be used for time trials. It was in the original FAQ.

Does this sound a little more pleasing to all of you?

- SOup

Distrupto
22nd October 2005, 03:48 AM
To be perfectly honest you guys are taking my tips and applying them to a style of gameplay completely sepearate from what was available at the time and what I intended to address.

My guide was intended for people who were:

A) Picking up the game for the very first time and learning how to even pilot a ship

B) Attempting to find the right fit for time-trials and getting to Purist level

My guide does not even begin to touch multi player with humans or serious racing.

Of course much of the material is flawed when you look at it if you were entering a race with experienced humans. That's not what the guide was meant to address! I wouldn't follow the tips in my guide if I was entering a race with any of you. Of course I would pilot a ship with more shield and take a hit to handling because as a few of you said, the AI sucks with weaponry and humans are viscious bastards.

My guide was for beginners. You cannot apply the material to experienced human vs human racing.

Thank you for the criticism on the core material and writing style. Also, thank you to the person who pointed out a contridiction in my wording.

Again, you have to view my guide in terms of complete n00bs or somebody attempting to achieve Purist level vs. AI. Not in the terms of multiplayer.

- SOup

If so, what does THIS mean?:


---Zone

Zone is a great vehicle for passing time trials. Awesome handling, speed, and
thrust means that you can rip up the track…and in time trials shield doesn’t
matter. Also, heads up or in a small multiplayer game, Zone will smoke the
competition.

---Medieval

A cool looking vehicle but that’s about it. Zone is better for time trials, and
with a 1 shield you don’t want to take Medieval onto the track. However, heads
up or in a three person race, Medieval will kick ass.

This doesnt make sense, unless the three players in the multiplayer game r all beginners.. :?

Hope to see ur upgraded FAQ. Good luck, SOup :wink:

Drakkenmensch
22nd October 2005, 04:02 AM
Wow. Congrats, Distrupto, you precisely mimicked my post, and it's not even a matter of posting almost at the same time, mine was almost seven hours ago. And you also did so after we had resolved the whole matter and we had put this situation behind us.

EDIT: Ooops, my bad. The post you ripped off from me wasn't two hours ago, it was seven hours.

Omni Requiem
23rd October 2005, 12:57 AM
Good stuff on the editing SOup, I'd agree on the ships suited for beginners although maybe you could outline how although some ships are easy to learn in, all ships are equally hard to master. That way the ships seem more equal in the long run so all players aren't stuck in the "I need the the fastest ship to win" frame of mind.

G0rT
23rd October 2005, 01:28 AM
Welcome to the forums SOup! first let me say that when I first got Pure I read your faq and unlike alot of people here I was able to take something from it as my mind was not yet atuned to wipeout like the vets here. Although I still didn't agree with your take on ships (which is OK cause everyone can have an opinion) your break down on stats was very helpful to explain what the stats actualy did during a race and helped lead me to choice of ship (Goteki), which helped me fully complete my US version and get my skills to where they are. So thanks.

Drakkenmensch
23rd October 2005, 02:20 AM
Read your reworked FAQ, much better indeed. It gives fair warning that some ships, while being good, are not for the inexperienced.

Good show, SOup! :D

SOup
23rd October 2005, 05:44 PM
G0rT - Glad to help!

Drakkenmensch - It hasn't been officially updated yet. How did you view the updates while in the que?

- SOup

Hellfire_WZ
23rd October 2005, 05:54 PM
It has actually unless you've updated a second time since Friday. Looks a lot better. Does Contributor Central still list it as in the queue?

Drakkenmensch
23rd October 2005, 05:57 PM
I didn't do anything special - I just went to the Wipeout Pure section and clicked on your FAQ. I read through it and found that it was indeed updated. I guess I went to look very shortly after the server completed the update process!

killerfrog
23rd October 2005, 08:48 PM
I'm playing pure since only 1 week....
i'm still using q and feisar....i fell so noob :oops: :cry:

eLhabib
23rd October 2005, 09:43 PM
there's nothing wrong with feisar and qirex AT ALL. there's some REALLY fast pilots out there using these ships. For example, def, who hosts a purE ghosting site (http://defaulted.ath.cx/ghost/), has set most of his records using a qirex. just pick the ship that suits you best!

Omni Requiem
23rd October 2005, 11:00 PM
Fiesar pilots can be some of the best around, what they lack in speed they make up with using every trick in the book to get ahead and they can also afford to be aggresive.
I see nothing wrong with Qirex either.

killerfrog
24th October 2005, 09:13 AM
Eheh!
I got the point!

The problem is that feisar lack of speed but its manovrabilty is incredible!
I can handle that ship also in rapier.....with piranha i'm not able to take a turn as i want!
Every 2 second i crash on a guardrail ahhahah

I feel so noob but i prefer to get the full controll of my ship....with pira and others (at least now) i'm not able to do anything.
I remember i was very good with pira in 2097....but now i've lost all my old skill :\

Drakkenmensch
24th October 2005, 09:55 AM
Also keep in mind that the 2097 Piranha was a supership in terms of stats - it had 10s everywhere. The only way to have the Piranha match that today would be to have 5 in speed, handling, thrust AND shields. As you noticed, the 2197 Piranha is FAR from being 5s everywhere. Those 2s in handling and thrust mean that hitting walls is not only difficult to avoid, it's totally unforgiving, as you take so much time to speed up from a dead stop.

But when you're in total control, man, what a total blast that is to pilot!

killerfrog
24th October 2005, 11:34 AM
Ya.....i agree!
2097's pira was incredible.

This instead lack of control......i'm not able to do a turnover too! :P
Too "heavy" to pilote....i prefer my old and "strange" feisar :D

Sumimasen
24th October 2005, 11:38 AM
:rock_on

I agree 100%, Drak.

Getting perfect laps is quite a thrill at the best of times, but doing it in a Piranha, at flash or above, on Karbonis/Citta Nuova/Vohl Square is almost too good!

On the subject of the Icaras being a supership - Nah! I love the Icaras (currently my second most used craft) and the fact that the handling and shields are average and poor respectively, mean that it's by no means a sure fire winner. The slightly improved shields over the Zone mean that a higher number of rolls are possible in TT. This SHOULD help the Zone addicts kick the (bad) habit. If I came up against an Icaras in MP, I wouldn't regard it as an obvious target, which I do with the Zone and Medievil. :D

Omni Requiem
24th October 2005, 11:57 AM
Yeah, I'm a true pink Icarus fan but I prefer the "may as well be a ballistic missile" Icaras of W30. I remember looking at the stats in the manual and I fell in love instantly.
Pure's rendition is good but I would have like the handling to be 2 to have that "Icarus Feel".

Icaras Iconoclasm! 8)

JABBERJAW
24th October 2005, 12:39 PM
In order for it to feel anything like piranha 2097 it's stats would have to be about

speed 8 acceleration 8 handling 8 shields 5. This would make it about 3 seconds faster per lap, as opposed to maybe 0.5 per lap