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View Full Version : Pure's AI and their amazing ability to defy game physics.



Space Cowboy
15th April 2005, 07:44 PM
I got my psp the other day with pure. Since then I have been playing solidly, and have come to notice some strange things regarding AI behaviour.
Has anyone noticed that when you get straight into lead position from the start the AI seems utterly intent on destroying you?, For example, After taking the lead straight away on 'Citta Nuova' in venom tourny mode, i was hit by 4 or five quakes consecutively, the result of which was me being eliminated from the tournament. :( Now dont get me wrong, I love the AI in pure, i think its a real challenge and its great for WO vets to go up against some serious opposition; however I am adverse to the AI 'cheating', by which I mean gaining an unfair weapon advantage just to keep me in a lower place.
Also I have noticed AI ships using their boost, flying off the track at incredible speed and then being teled back to the track without a loss of a single micro second.... hmmm... me wonders.
Anyway... any thoughts?

gbit
15th April 2005, 11:14 PM
What I have noticed too is that if you combine the speed boost you get at the start (if you press X at the right time) and perfect flying, you go from 8th to 1st in a few seconds. The problem is that the AI seems to have no problem overtaking you! Even flying a piranha or another fast ship, by about a quarter into the lap you're back in 7th.

guinness
16th April 2005, 02:02 AM
That's my biggest peeve with the game so far, on the higher classes (and I'm only at the Flash speed class so far) it makes it harder to win at first since you're always fighting the pack. Usually on the first lap, I can't do better than 6th, and the 1st place ship will jump out to quite a big lead.

I've noticed in the Flash class (and I'm assuming that the faster classes are like this) is that the game becomes much more weapon based, less racing based. A decent amount of luck is required, as well as skill.

Concept
16th April 2005, 02:45 AM
You guys are going to go mad in Phantom then.

I had no problems with the first three speed classes. I struggled a bit in Rapier, but it was easy to overcome through practice.

However... Phantom... it's such a leap, especially in terms of frustration and getting killed through excessive weapons fighting.

Axel
16th April 2005, 08:13 AM
Well I'm sure it can't be as bad as wipeout fusion right? TBH I prefer it to be a little tough when it comes to weapons because this is what makes wipeout; wipeout for me.

Space Cowboy
16th April 2005, 10:32 AM
Im actually going to say something, i thought i'd never say about a wipeout game.
ITS TOO BLOODY HARD!!
The later speed classes (Flash, onwards) are just so imbalanced it makes for bitch of a race. I hope this can be corrected with a patch as part of the downloadable content, because this is really spoiling what started out as the best wipeout to date.
Please Studio Liverpool, if your listening, what gives? :evil:

Oh and just one other small gripe, I think the airbrakes are far too unresponive, especially when applying both for a full braking effect.

Wamdue
16th April 2005, 11:14 AM
Well, atleast they didnt dumb down the game/speed classes to appeal to mainstream gamers like in Fusion :) I remember swearing at Silverstreams unforgiving corners.. That was because of my own faults as a pilot tho and not some opponent AI, hopefully I wont get too ticked off on the issues you guys are describing.

Space Cowboy
16th April 2005, 11:31 AM
I think you'll encounter the same problems. It seems that everyone who has played pure encounters these after the vector and venom classes are over. Normally i'd put bad performance down to, too many beers, or a bad day, but pure just performs impossible feats in order to beat you. When it comes to ship stats, dont pay any attention because in single race or tourny mode they just go out the window, you may aswell be in a Tesco shopping trolley. In time trial however, this is when performance stats apply.
Like someone was saying earlier, even if your in a Pirhana, or Quirex blasting along at top speed, the AI will always over take you (even if they are piloting a Feisar or Ag-sys). Something is wrong with pure, and im sure thats why the Euro release, and US downlaodable content is being held back.
How the hell the testers didnt pick this up during the testing phase is beyond me. Its so in your face its untrue. :(

rejj
16th April 2005, 12:31 PM
I doubt that last point.
The euro release is to line up with when Sony wants to launch the hardware. I imagine the US downloadable content is to make sure there is still value for the Euro markets - they don't want all the downloadable content to be available before the game is out in Europe... so it has to be delayed a bit.

The Japanese content doesn't influence this because there are no regions in Europe that speak Japanese natively.. so there is no real sales threat from imports based around the downloadable content being available.


As for the game being "too hard"... at the risk of sounding harsh or rude, I think you simply need more practice.

eLhabib
16th April 2005, 12:33 PM
Im actually going to say something, i thought i'd never say about a wipeout game.
ITS TOO BLOODY HARD!!
.

well, actually I'm quite glad it's harder than previous wipEouts! And it's not TOO hard by any means. It gets harder in rapier, and definitely in phantom, but before that, in the first 3 classes, I was winning every race and tournament on the first try, so I'm actually quite pleased with the higher presence of enemy aggression in rapier and phantom. I hated Fusion mostly for tha fact that I was leading the whole pack d of the first lap every single time, and from then on it was more than TT than a real race with competition.

It's a very well balanced game IMHO, so stop bitchin' and train harder! :wink:

Space Cowboy
16th April 2005, 12:45 PM
Believe me, I love a challenge.:D I've only ever played Fusion a few time and couldnt get into it.
It just strikes me as wierd that alot of people are encountering the same issues with pure. Dont get me wrong I love the game and still think its the best iteration yet of Wipeout (with the exception of 2097)
Well maybe your right, but time will tell. :)
I am right about the airbrakes though, they are unresponsive.

eLhabib
16th April 2005, 03:49 PM
I never found them to be unresponsive, if you ask me. And who does braking with both airbrakes together anyway? Braking's for sissies :D

Space Cowboy
16th April 2005, 04:09 PM
Perhaps 'unresponsive' was the incorrect word to use, i find the braking effects to be inadequate. Especially for the higher classes, when dual braking can help you take the tight corners at breakneck speed, thus maintaining your time and pace. :D

Dogg Thang
16th April 2005, 05:30 PM
I think it is a dangerous thing to say that it's too hard - the last thing I want is devs reacting to this and making the next WO really easy.

It's not that it's too hard - the problem is that it is too reliant on luck. Rapier WO1 was just as hard as this if you remember. The difference, however, is that eventually you could get your skill level up to a point where it was possible to beat. The thing about Pure is (which I have said in a similar topic) that skill isn't enough. In fact, I don't think I hit the skill level I had to in WO1 simply because I was never given the chance while being blown off the tracks. Luck plays too strong a role when it comes to the enemy craft.

And, yeah, Phantom is crazy for that. You think 4 quakes is a problem? When 1 quake can take you out of a tournament - that's a problem.

But, I beg of people, please don't say it's too hard! It's not. It's just that it requires luck more than skill to beat.

Rouni Kenshin#1
16th April 2005, 05:31 PM
O come on you are a bunch of cry babies. I'm on Flash and still never make less than 3rd, and thats only on the harder tracks.

All i'm saying is the first two speed classes were two easy. :wink:

eLhabib
16th April 2005, 05:39 PM
Rouni, don't mean to be harsh, but you ain't seen nothin' yet! This game gets WAY more challenging in Rapier and Phantom. If you are getting ranks of 2nd or 3rd frequently in Flash class, you're gonna be all over the place in Rapier. I got gold on each and every race, tournament and TT in Vector, Venom and Flash on the first attempt, and still Rapier was a tough nut to crack.

BUT: it definitely isn't too hard. actually, I find Phantom to be easier than Rapier, for I manage to shoot in first right at the beginning, and, due to the high speeds, I am able to stay in front, too, which was close to impossible in the slower classes, due to enemies speed boosting at the beginning of the race to spread out more. (woo, long sentence :D ). I gotta say that I love Phantom. After all that has been said about it being too hard and too reliant on luck, I have to say that I don't see this at all. I think it's just perfect. The only thing that f**ks me up every now and then in Phantom are bombs in tight corners, they just kill your speed totally. But hey, you got 5 laps, enough time to catch up! If you are a good enough pilot, you should be in first after lap 3 anyway.

Dogg Thang
16th April 2005, 05:50 PM
Yeah, that's a good point - Phantom Sol 2 is the only course I can start at number 1 and not see another craft for the whole race. And I'd agree, as I said before, that it really isn't too hard although I would still argue that luck is too strong a factor. You say bombs on corners are bad but missles on corners can knock you completely off the track leaving you in last place from first place.

If just one random hit from a weapon (which you have absolutely no control over) can take you completely out of a race than the luck factor is too high. The weapons should be used to stir things up, just like they do in the lower classes. One weapon should never be the deciding factor in a race. I feel it really makes the effort to race well feel pointless. That's just my opinion anyway.

eLhabib
16th April 2005, 06:01 PM
I see your point, although I have only lost a race due to a random weapon hit one time so far. Most of the time I am ahead of the pack by lap 3, so most of the weapon action takes place before that, when I'm with the pack. And if I do get hit badly then, I still have enough time to recover.

There SHOULD HAVE been an option to disable weapons, though.

Furthermore, people who complained about the weapons being too hard and too frequent, maybe you just have a bad pickup strategy. When I pick up a shield, I keep it (unless my energy is real low) until a weapon is fired at me, or until I am speeding towards a bomb I cannot dodge anymore. I think most people are ditching (absorbing) the shield whenever they get it, which really is a bad idea, for it is such an important pickup. Also, try dodging rockets, distruptors, and even missiles! It works, really does. Oh and WHO THE HELL needs double braking for ANY turns in this game?! I don't, so you shouldn't need to either. It's possible without slowing down, believe me.

Concept
16th April 2005, 07:16 PM
The first three speed classes are fair and balanced for the most part.

The first signs of real frustration begin in rapier, but it is beatable.

Phantom however... really needed far more fine tuning. It's great in Time Trials, but in terms of racing, it's more often than not a painful slog. Oddly enough, I have no problem with the air brakes like Space Cowboy does. They're the elements which remind me of the old style handling of the series more than anything in contrast to the different, and slightly stiffer feel of the ships without them.

Rouni Kenshin#1
17th April 2005, 10:16 PM
Hay agin; i was out. the game may get harder but the way to go through it is to get gold on everthing for the class and then start the next. :banzai

but the 3rd on hard track was when i had been on flash for maby 3 hours. 8)

with another day i'm mush better.

eLhabib
17th April 2005, 11:00 PM
actually, that's the way I play it, too. first I get all the golds in time trial for the alpha and classic league, then single races, then tournament, then the same thing with beta league, then ascencion and on to the faster speeds.

infoxicated
18th April 2005, 10:54 AM
Since I've been asked to comment on this thread, I guess I should.

In my experience, in the cold light of day, the AI in Wipeout Pure either sandbags for you in the lower classes, or overtly cheats in the latter speed classes, either by superior boost at the start of a race, or by a passive/aggressive weapons balance in their favour (i.e. you seem to get shields and tubos, while they get nasty disruptors, quakes and missiles). The class that I find has a good balance is Flash, along with a couple of the easier tracks at Rapier. I haven't played much of Phantom, so I cant really comment there.

I would have preferred the AI difficulty to have been seperate from the speed classes, as it would have been nice to have a tough race at Vector, if I wanted, or an easy race at Phantom to get used to the speed, for example.

As I understand it, the tight development schedule meant that kind of thing wasn't possible, so... hey ho... maybe next time.

Since that kind of elastic AI tends to get rave reviews and sell well in every other racing game (NFS:U, Burnout 3, Midnight Club), I don't see the incentive to change it, though. :|

Purist
18th April 2005, 11:25 AM
Whoahhhhhhhh, some thread! - well, I and everyone else thought it was hard, if not VERY hard at first but both me and several others on the boards have gotten all 144 medals.

Try using your 'Mario Kart' style boost at the start (when it says "GO" and turns from blue to green), even though (unless your very lucky with boosts etc.) several (if not all) AI craft will pass you - if your skilled, after a lap or two you'll catch up and given that the laps are extended to 5 in the later levels, this ain't TOO hard. Overall... of course the game is hard, would you wanna spend your hard earned cash on summit you can finish in a few hours. Value for money! I'd say, when I get my JAP version, I'm looking forward to the 144 medal challange again! - I'd actually want some EVEN harder tracks not EASIER :x ... in a nutshell, put the graft in guys, the rewards are there!!!... - being a PURIST!!! :D

Space Cowboy
18th April 2005, 11:38 AM
Thanks very much for your input Foxx. :)
Purist: I do agree, the hardwork does pay off, but blimey it is hard work :)

Seek100
18th April 2005, 01:25 PM
Really I don't think wipEout should have a difficulty setting of any kind, I'm not aware of it having this 'elastic difficulty' in earlier games, the only difference was the speed, the speed provided the difficulty in the early games and there was no cheating on the part of the AI, by cheating I mean anything that gives the AI an unfair advantage over the player like in Foxx's example giving the AI more heavy offensive weapons and giving the player only shields and turbos or at least a preponderance of them. This is not what I consider fair in a game and means that rather than being purely about skill (no pun intended) the game starts to incorporate an element of luck completely out of the control of the player.

The perfect difficulty setting in a wipEout game IMO would be a set ability for all the AI craft so they can beat the average player a fair amount of the time but that does not increase as you progress; only the speed increases and that provides the challenge as the craft become more difficult to control effectively, this might be a bit hard initially for newcomers but so were the original wipEout and 2097.

Dogg Thang
18th April 2005, 01:43 PM
I totally agree with what you're saying Seek. The AI works really well but should have been tweaked to compensate for the changes that occur in the high classes.

I should say though that the AI was not without fault in the earlier games. Aside from spacing out very unrealistically, they were also pretty fixed in their line. Remember trying to get into a pit lane when there was an enemy craft in the way? Forget about it, it was like trying to shift an elephant - their racing line was so fixed that you would just bounce off them and they were totally unaffected.

But I totally agree with your point.

infoxicated
18th April 2005, 01:48 PM
Really I don't think wipEout should have a difficulty setting of any kind...The problem is, some people are just **** at video games, some people are just brilliant. One difficulty level for all is never going to please all of the people all of the time, and certainly not the folk at the extreme ends of the ****/brilliant scale.

I'm good at Madden, and I have the AI sliders in madden adjusted so that the AI can run the ball better, block better and tackle better, while my settings are lower so that it's more difficult for me to win. I enjoy good, challenging games for the most part, where I don't run away with them and nor does the AI. Sweet. For me.

If another Madden fan used my settings they might find the game either ridiculously hard or ridiculously easy, because no two people play the game in the exact same way. I'm not saying that Wipeout should have the intricate AI sliders that Madden has, but some degree of user control over the resulting challenge would give the game a lot more depth and replay value.

What's the point in playing Vector and Venom races/tournaments once you've golded them up and find Flash a walk in the park? No point in going for good times in Single Race mode - that's what Time Trial is for.

I find Time Trial is a good way to learn a track and refine my technique around it, but the quest for the best time is something I'd place second to my desire for a good, challenging race where I can use that honed technique against a worthy grid of opponants. It is, after all, a racing game.

kaiotheforsaken
18th April 2005, 09:26 PM
my biggest gripe (as mentioned by someone else) is that the stats seem irrelevant in tournaments. I dont care how awesome feisar can be if its catching me when i'm flying the zone or piranha (no breaks and no hitting ANY walls) there is definately something up. Rapier beats my ass into the ground and then laughs like satan at my failure. I will admit some of this is due to my relatively small amount of experience with the series, but still i already do pretty well until i race the AI.

eLhabib
18th April 2005, 09:49 PM
I have experienced that too, on a couple of occasions. most of the time, the faster ships like triakis and piranha are the ones that rank high, though.

DieselEmpire
18th April 2005, 10:22 PM
That AI is extremely annoying... I really don't like the way seems to focus on luck and weapons...

It seems that racing skills are just a plus, not like THE main factor in your race.

eLhabib
18th April 2005, 10:27 PM
I wouldn't go so far and say that. If your driving is crap, then there is no chance you are ever gonna win. If your luck is crap, you can still recover the lead with some extraordinary driving.

Rouni Kenshin#1
19th April 2005, 10:21 PM
I would not say that the AI is too hard, i like it that way.

The hard AI and the wepons are what give pure it's amasing replay value.

So i say that the AI is what makes it fun. :rock_on

yawnstretch
20th April 2005, 09:54 AM
Welcome to the forums by the way Rouni :!:

I think you're right about the AI. We will undoubtedly become better at the game so it stands to reason that hard AI are ultimately preferable.

Oh and here's a burger for you. :burger

username
22nd May 2005, 10:08 AM
heres a question ive been dying to ask.
on wipeout pure is the AI of the ships like on the ps1 titles or like on fusion were they could hit walls the same as you could.
also is the auto-pilot perfect driving again like the ps1 titles, i hated the way if you fell off the track and you engaged auto-pilot you would zoom back to the track!! :twisted: :twisted:

eLhabib
22nd May 2005, 11:26 AM
the AI pretty much flies a perfect line, but you can easily push them off their line by ramming them, not like in 2097 where they were fixed on their racing line like going on rails.

the autopilot can not prevent you from hitting a wall when it's already too late. It does not work like in 2097 or the original w'o'', which is a good thing. the bad thing about it is that it will sometimes be unable to handle certain parts of track, means it will on some tricky sections even hit walls or fly off track. infact, there's only like 3 or 4 sections of track in the whole game where I use it instead of instantly absorbing it.

Dogg Thang
22nd May 2005, 11:53 AM
The slightly odd thing about the AI is the way it reacts differently to certain tracks. For example, is anyone else finding that the AI craft seem to be rubbish at Staten Park? You can race really badly on that track and win with no problem.

Then on Modesto Heights and Citta Nouva, for whatever reason, they seem to get a lot more agressive. It's like they bunch together more or something. Again, playing through the jp version, I'm finding that Citta Nouva is just frustrating as a result. I have figured out that it's not how you handle the track, it's all about how you handle the AI. They seem to bunch into two main groups - the first 4 and the last 3. It's best to hang back and wait for a shield, then make a mad dash for that mid-point behind the first 4 craft. That seems to be the quietest place to be. You can hang there until right at the end of the race and, if you get a boost or autopilot, take all of those last 4 craft in one go on the last section of the last lap. I find if you try to race it normally, you'll get stuck in a barrage of fire in one of the groups.

username
22nd May 2005, 01:23 PM
how does the auto-pilot react to weapons in pure, in wo3 it span aroun and if you were killed it would keep on moving and in wo2097 it would also spin around but if it was eliminated while autopilot was engaged it would corkscrew along the track and explode in motion!! :D

Lion
22nd May 2005, 01:33 PM
I've found that on flash the only track I get a real leap on the ai is manor top, I can start boost into first and sometimes even hold it. the other tracks it makes little difference
I'm only up to flash so far, but I'm finding that if you play till you have all the golds in a speed level before trying the next one, the ai seems fair. at least to this point in the game
there's still a few tracks I am complete crap at driving

as to the brake responsiveness... it feels to me like a single brake is being put on at the front, and the rear is being pushed out to one side. I actually use that on some tracks to get the ass of my ship around bends without scraping... too close to the left wall? tap left air brake and it skims round without touching. it's not what I really expected when I started but it's something I've grown to very much enjoy... feels like I'm racing drift style

I like the AI as it is (at least in vector, venom, and flash) it's posing a challenge on a few tracks (citta nuova) but is fairly easy on others (sol2) but it feels fair, though far from believable. having to re-race certain tracks makes you improve, that's a good thing. and playing timetrial teaches you the best lines. play timetrial enough and keep the same lines in a race and you have a good chance. weapons just happen on most tracks, speed boosts are the important thing

btw: I started playing wo3 and 2097 again last night... damn they seem easy now that I've been playing a lot of pure... I must have improved quite a bit

djlucite
26th May 2005, 02:20 PM
That's exactly how I describe the brakes: drifting.

It's fun as hell to take s-turns and stuff without hitting anything. It's kind of a rush to hit your rear view and say "holy crap I just did that at 700 kph wtf", haha.

Dimension
26th May 2005, 02:50 PM
In all honesty I find the brakes to not do their job well enough: the back end just doesn't swing out quite like it should and that makes long, drifty corners very difficult (and near impossible at rapier) to take, especially with the faster, less nimble ships. The latter parts of Sinucit are a good example: while with other WOs i'd swing the back end out and do the long corners before the last little wiggly section in the style of Mega Mall's mega helix, the lack of drift and insane speed taxation upon braking just don't let that happen, which drives me nuts a lot of the time. I've not got much against the physics in general, I do like that the 3 bottom leagues still drift like they always did during cornering, course i'm not a fan of the drifty (see: girly) leagues anyway :wink:

One thing I did notice through the limited amount of Vs. AI racing I did in the lower leagues though, is that AI ships seem to speed up as the race goes on. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but in vector, several times i'd hit the front by the end of the first lap, by the end of the second I had almost 10 seconds on the second place guy, but after the third, having almost equaled my second lap time, i'd been reduced to just a couple of seconds, that much can't just be down to boosting and a little luck can it? Figure there must be some kind of handicap feature there, anyone else found this at all? :?

Dogg Thang
26th May 2005, 05:23 PM
Yeah, there definitely seems to be some rubber banding going on in the AI. That's normal and I think it's needed in a good racer.

reaver
26th May 2005, 06:53 PM
Skill or not...When you're HURTING on low health and you're about 4-5 places behind, just wait for the cheap AI to break out the mines and bombs. I kid you not, about 4 out of 5 times I've been low on health and behind a few places, every stationary weapon is placed on the track. I guess it gives you a challenge, but I refuse to believe that the AI is randomizing weapons at that point.

Space Cowboy
26th May 2005, 09:48 PM
If you ask me there is no randomizing involed, if you do well in the first race of a tourny just watch the bastards throw everything they've got at you in the next race.
I just did the accension tourny on rapier and im not kidding it was: bomb, bomb, mines, mines, mines, bomb, bomb, quake.... F**ked!
Its very disheartning to have a wipeout out that likes to spoil the fun.
And before anyone says 'Well its part of the fun, I love the AI', you can get f**ked! Its plain cheating on the part of the AI no doubt about it. :evil:

Hacker X
27th May 2005, 07:32 PM
The overuse of weapons in this Wipeout is FRUSTRATING BEYOND BELIEF. Don't get me wrong though, I think this is THE BEST Wipeout ever created, and I'm loving it. But I'm not going to lie though man, I've almost come to tears with this game playing through Flash, and Rapier especially, and being in 1st place in last lap, just to get hit with Quake - Missile - Rocket - *get passed* then Mine - and or Bomb.

The developers said they were focusing on mostly racing for this Wipeout, but from playing this game extensively, it seems weapons is almost all the AI is about. :twisted:

Like its been said in this thread, a lot of times you feel yourself winning moreover by luck of not getting as many weapons thrown at you rather than mostly by racing skill sometimes.

But, once again, I stress, this is THE BEST WIPEOUT EVER. I can get around the aggressive AI, as the game isn't impossibe to play, just EXTREMELY HARD. Thank God for this game. Hope they keep the updated track downloads coming.

Dimension
27th May 2005, 08:02 PM
Wow, that's some mighty high praise, best wipeout ever 8O I wouldn't say as much myself, but hey, each to their own :rock_on

Hacker X
27th May 2005, 08:22 PM
Well, this is how I see it with the Wipeouts:

Wipeout 1 - Good, but was the first one, and needed refinements like wall scraping instead of stopping, and also only had 7 tracks - EXCELLENT SOUNDTRACK BY COLD STORAGE

Wipeout XL - The best Wipeout overall til Wipout Pure - Everything about this Wipeout for the most part was perfect. Only down side is that it only had 8 tracks. Also, could have used an extra race class as Phantom was too easy once you mastered the tracks. - Excellent soundtrack

Wipeout 3 - This Wipeout had potential, but ended up being a bit off. I mean, I really liked it, but I think they made the rubberbanding AI TOO hard in this one. This was the first Wipeout I actually started getting frustrated in while playing. - Still though excellent soundtrack

Wipeout Fusion - Ugh! Well, while Fusion had potential, totally changing the physics of the Wipeout craft changed the gameplay and made it not feel like Wipeout. Had really good graphics, first Wipeout with craft customizations, and also, another KILLER soundtrack

Wipeout Pure - Best one yet. Graphics are actually better than the PS2 version with bloom lighting, and more violent explosions, and even the physics of the ships and the way that sparks fly from the wings when scraping stuff is really cool. It has 12 regular tracks, 4 Zone tracks AND downloabable content consisting of more tracks, craft, and front end skins. Also has a killer soundtrack. Hence I think its the best Wipeout yet.

yawnstretch
27th May 2005, 10:41 PM
I think that Wipeout PurE really really brings the series back to form in all the important ways except perhaps music. I think to be honest that Fusion for example had much better music than Pure (pure has a couple of fantastic tracks but it also has one or two crappy ones).

I think the music needs to be more cinematic / dramatic / epic - ok Im finding it hard to describe because I think that good music cant be described with words (I think music journalism is pointless for example) but the great thing about the original wipeout's music in my opinion is that it was less about an individual song / group and more about a distinctive ambience. I think cold storage / tim had a vision (if such a word applies to music) that coincided perfectly with the feel and look of the game .

To be fair we haven't heard all the downloadable tracks and PurE's soundtrack definitely has its moments - but I sincerely hope that if there's a chance that we can hack our own music into the downloads that we aren't deliberately prevented from doing so with some sort of encryption / proprietary format :(

infoxicated
28th May 2005, 09:02 AM
The developer interview on Gamer TV last night highlighted for me how the handling of Wipeout has gone off at a tangent since Fusion came out. In the footage of the original Wipeout, you could see that the ships were agile and direct in the way they handled - they went where you pointed them, and for me Wipeout 3 was the pinacle of that.

WIth Fusion the handling went all slidey and you had to pre-turn into corners. Wipeout Pure, as much as it's gone back to basics with fewer weapons and shorter tracks, has kept the slidey handling I disliked in Fusion. If Fusion had come out playing like Pure I'd probably not have minded, though.

Wipeout Pure is a good return to form, but in the way the ships handle, Wipeout 3 SE is still the daddy as far as I'm concerned.

djlucite
28th May 2005, 09:38 AM
I still miss the camera from pre-fusion wipeouts as well. It seemed to let you ship 'give' around the screen a bit, adding to the whole floaty feeling. Pure's camera's locked to the nose of your ship pretty strongly.

eLhabib
28th May 2005, 09:57 AM
For me the ranking which w'o'' is the best goes like this:

Atmosphere:
#1 wipE'out''
#2 wipEout purE
#3 wipEout 2097
#4 wip3out
#5 wipEout Fusion

Graphical Style:
#1 wipEout purE
#2 wipEout 2097
#3 wip3out
#4 wipE'out''
#5 wipEout Fusion

Graphical Quality:
#1 wipEout purE
#2 wipEout Fusion
#3 wip3out
#4 wipEout 2097
#5 wipE'out''

Music:
#1 wipE'out''
#2 wip3out
#3 wipEout 2097
#4 wipEout purE
#5 wipEout Fusion

Handling+Gameplay:
#1 wipEout purE
#2 wip3out
#3 wipEout 2097
#4 wipE'out''
#5 wipEout Fusion

Track Design+Variety:
#1 wip3out
#2 wipEout purE
#3 wipEout 2097
#4 wipE'out''
#5 wipEout Fusion (on this one I have to say, even though the variety is definitely there, for me there isn't A SINGLE track in this game which is designed 100% well)

So, by adding the ranks together, that leads me to my overall ranking of the best w'o'':
Best Overall w'o'':
#1 wipEout purE (totalling at 11 points)
#2 wip3out (totalling at 15 points)
#3 wipEout 2097 (totalling at 18 points)
#4 wipE'out'' (totalling at 19 points)
#5 wipEout Fusion (totalling at 27 points)

NOTE: I made up my personal ranklist for each category individually. and while I was writing this post, I was wondering, if the overall Top5 by adding up the ranks would actually be similar to my personal overall preference. And, strangely enough, the ranks added up to exactly the same top 5 that where set in my mind. Also, having w'o'' and 2097 only 1 point apart equals my taste. I really like 2097 slightly better than the original game!
So, I was quite impressed myself on how accurate these individual rankings were! 8O

Hellfire_WZ
28th May 2005, 11:53 AM
As several people have already mentioned, I find the airbrakes to be quite a pain to use at times. mainly because counterbraking to take sharp corners no longer seems to work. It was pretty easy in the originals, turn early into a sharp corner and use the opposite brake to laterally shift the craft into the corner itself. Not so here, I tried that and ended up hugging the apex of the corner for several years.

Not so much physics based, but another thing I find is that the weapons warning system is next to useless. You get the warning as the weapon is being launched, too often have I been trying to barge another craft until BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM...... "Mines"..... oh, thanks love. :|

Space Cowboy
28th May 2005, 01:06 PM
One thing I've noticed about PURE is that its the only Wipeout game where I've ever had to take my finger of the accelerator! Normally in a WO game its just finger down and never let go :)
This took a bit of getting used to at first but it does make for a good cornering technique.
When lifting off and using the airbrakes at the same time it is possible for one to initiate a very sharp turn, but at a great speed cost.
Its only really a viable option in craft that have high thrust.

djlucite
28th May 2005, 05:09 PM
I actually moved my accel button to square because it was hurting my thumb to hold X for that bloody long through tournaments and such, lol. Square seems more comfy since it's at the tip of your finger.