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JABBERJAW
25th March 2005, 01:13 PM
I have played the game, but only up to venom. I will probably get to play more tonight before I sell the PSP's. Anyways, early impressions on the feel of the game.

PItch control= I know infox said it would be difficult to have pitch, but it should have been in. I can handle it on the flats, but when in the air it doesn't hardly change where you are going to land whether you push up on the nose or down. Even fzero has the air pitch down. Nosediving into the ground is faster than using the pitch correctly and landing smoothly, although doing nothing seems to be better than both. Pulling up on the nose doesnt really keep you up in the air longer, which is really frustrating, although, only venom speed, It feels like this will be it throughout the game. Landing the ship off a jump doesn't feel anything like previous wipeouts, not even as smooth as fusion.

Speed= I thought venom felt like venom should feel. I think this is going to be fine when getting up to the fast classes.

Scraping= I always said I would like fusion if the scraping around turns wasn't faster than riding the walls. Wall collisions slow you down, which is great, but a little more leniency on the scraping(on old games you could scrape slightly without slowing down, but not in this game). This is probably due to the lack of pitch and not getting up higher on the wall. However, This is perfectly playable, and a light touch on the wall doesn't slow you down too much. But for those of you who like to ride the walls on the corners for an extra tenth off, you are out of luck.

Bad Luck = I am very happy this is back in the game.

Weapons = I haven't used the dodge too much, so I'm not sure if you can dodge a lot of weapons, but a lot of times these weapons bring you to a complete stop. This is extremely frustrating, and I'm sure it is even more frustrating on the fast speeds. Now I'm not that good at the game yet, and haven't gotten into first place right away, so maybe that would take care of that problem. Either way, I think the weapons slowdown of the ships could be a little more lenient. Can you fire the weapons backwards? You should be able to. One thing I liked in fusion was firing the quake backwards.

barrel roll = this is an awesome edition, and the speed boost is great. I am not performing it very well with the analog nub, but I'm sure I will get better.

Turbo boost = the turbo weapon really can change where you are going to land on the track, which makes up somewhat for the pitch control. I have made huge jumps even on venom speed.

Zone Mode = My first attempt I did not like it, the controls were not as good as fusion(the way the ship moved). I need to give this more time. I also didn't like the track anywhere near as much as the fusion tracks, but I need to give it more time.

Brakes = the braking feels too loose(like fusion) where you slide too much which makes you slow down. the old braking system allowed for more sliding around the corners than slowing down big time, however, I expect this to change as the speed classes increase in speed. To be honest, I need to give this a chance. the braking kinda feels like powerdrome for anyone who has played that.

overall I would say this feels like fusion with much better wall physics. I really doesn't feel any more floaty than fusion, but I haven't gotten onto the faster speeds to see if you can get off the track on bumps that are not jumps. If you can get into the air on these, It will be a big improvement over fusion. As of now I think I will like it more, but future versions of the game really need the "REAL FEEL" of wipeout back in the game. Someone who has played the games need to be one of the designers. I'll give a real score when I'm done the whole game.

Sausehuhn
25th March 2005, 01:17 PM
at the offical US website you can see the "float". watch the videos!
Between: the floaty feel wasn't there in any WipEout in vector or venom...

lunar
25th March 2005, 01:39 PM
IMO you can`t tell from the videos what the "float" is like, or if it exists.

Interesting stuff, Al, thanks. 8)

Sausehuhn
25th March 2005, 01:50 PM
okay, you're right, but you se the float, and that tells us, that the handling is not the same as in Fuion just with better wall physics 8)

Dimension
25th March 2005, 02:36 PM
Nice one Al, a description from a super pilot, that's what i've been waiting for heh. If in doubt get word from the man that knows the most, i had worries about the crashing and weapons slow down from the videos, guess it's as bad as it looks 8O

Chill
25th March 2005, 03:08 PM
I thought about the slowing down pretty heavy to, but I hope it'll change down the faster classes!! :wink:

JABBERJAW
25th March 2005, 03:11 PM
I forgot to add.

records keeping = this is awesome

Control Configuration = this is also great, any button anywhere

single brake option = I won't even try it, don't think it should be an option. This is the type of thing I believe that someone will figure out how to take advantage of and then everyone will have to use it. Hopefully this doesn't happen.


I'm not saying the game is bad, I think it is pretty good so far, just that I want a real wipeout with the floaty physics. This is two games in a row like this. Now keep in mind I haven't played anything fast so far.

Another question. What is the "zone team ship"? Can you race with this in regular races, or is it just a better zone ship?

Concept
25th March 2005, 03:11 PM
Say it isn't so...

Fusion Special Edition? :/

Everywhere else has said it's more like 2097/XL than anything.

Mano
25th March 2005, 03:15 PM
Al: some questions, although its a subjective one, would you say so far this is the best Wieout?, and if not, if you feel its better than XL?

Btw i never asked this before, which one is your favorite?

oh and congrats on the sales man hehe, i used to do that, since here in Perķ import prices are very high and theres no official distribution whatsoever of video games they tend to come in very late, i always have some friend or family member that is on trip to usa or japan, and i used to get consoles and sell them up to twice the price, and my price would be cheaper than the importers ones!!!!!!. like the time i sold my N64 for 500, or my Playstation for 550 :D it really pays to have patience....

BenjaminBirdie
25th March 2005, 04:52 PM
I don't know, I've sensed a 'float' difference between this game and Fusion, but I am in no way a WO Grand Master. I'm still middling around Vector in my quest to get EVERYTHING done (working on medals in Time Trial now, with every ship it takes a while).

Just to add, not only can the Weapons or a Wrong Turn completely stop you, it can actually Push You Back (!!!). You know how you used to laugh at the poor saps bouncing against your Force Wall? Don't laugh, for next time it might be you.

This is quite frustrating, naturally, but there hasn't been an instance where I was disgusted or blamed poor game design. I knew I just needed to learn the track better and thus beat out the hordes. It is simply an incredibly challenging game.

Going for the Time Trial Medals, actually, has given me a much greater respect for the game. The Medal Requirements are incredibly strict, and you basically have to START on a perfect lap and improve from there. Going for them, though, burns the track into your memory. This is probably old news to most of you (Time Trials = Skill) but putting a medal system in place really hammers it home. (I believe this was also available in Fusion, but for some reason I never got around to unlocking it.)

It certainly FEELS floatier, and having just come off a marathon effort on Fusion, I've got a pretty good sense of that game's physics.

Also, this is truly a handheld game. Don't be fooled by the videos or the reviews and expect anything with the capabilities of a game on a system with a seperate controller and processor. This is a game with limitations because of the system its been designed for, but within those limitations, I feel this game is exceptional.

I feel a lot of people's disappointment with it not reaching the heights of any console version of the game, is a bit unfounded. The second you start your first race, you'll see and feel that this is really a handheld game on a handheld system, not a "Portable PS2" (or, really, even a "Portable PS1").

Just a word to the wise.

TMoney
25th March 2005, 04:52 PM
This guy is nuts - handling is nowhere near Fusion.

Pitch control is present on the track, but not in the air... I'm not sure why, but once you learn the barrel roll maneuver, you won't much care. You're not exactly going to pitch your ship while you're spinning, are you?

"Dodge" as it's referred to here you'll find is a more effective technique to use when turning. It's something that you can use if you've understeered too much, or something you can use if you cut the corner a little sharp to dodge the inside of the turn. If you're flying properly, you'll more or less be in the center of the track and that's what will make you think twice using the technique as a dodge, because you can end up in the wall anyway.

As for zone - - Fusion fans aren't going to like this as much simply because the handling is not Fusion style... it's floaty. No complaints about that decision here.

BenjaminBirdie
25th March 2005, 05:02 PM
I actually used the Dodge to knock a Pirhana into a wall as I passed by him. Quel satisfying.

Thruster2097
25th March 2005, 07:18 PM
This guy is nuts
I think you meant "this guy is THE nuts!" :lol:

JABBERJAW
25th March 2005, 07:38 PM
The pitch control in fusion and in pure do not bring the ship off of the ground more. YOu do not get a higher scraping radius. Until I play the faster speeds I cannot tell how floaty it is, but it is nowhere near 3,64,xl,1. It is much closer to fusion. You can get more air I believe in pure than in fusion and turbos really help that off the jumps. You should be able to control the pitch in the air much more(even after the barrel roll to land correctly). Smashing your nose into the ground is just as good as pulling back. I like the game better than fusion, mainly because of the scraping, but do not like as well as xl,64 or 3.

I like wipeout xl the best, then wipeout 64, then wipeout 3 japanese version

G'Kyl
25th March 2005, 07:54 PM
Same here, except I had to exchange "Japanese version" for "SE". Why the JP one?

infoxicated
25th March 2005, 08:11 PM
If it helps, Al, in the fast speed classes you can do stuff like hitting a turbo as you come out of the second underwater section of Vineta K, for example, then pull the nose up over the ridge and gain enough height to do a barrel roll.

At lower speeds you wont notice it, though. I do agree that it's nowhere near as floaty as Wipeout 3 SE - I asked, I badgered, I pleaded, and when it was all said and done it ended up as a fusion of, well, Fusion and Quantum Redishift.

All I can say is that I did my best in asking for pitch control, without going to the extent of pissing people off and losing friends over it. I too miss being able to feel the ship rise by pulling the nose up, but for some reason it just wasn't the direction they wanted to take with Pure.

It's a different set of goals they have to conform to nowadays, too. Back in the day it was okay to cut off pieces of the track and go through buildings - that kind of thing would make it through QA, but it wont any more. You only need to watch some of Arnaud's video footage to see what a mockery that makes of the game, too. I'll miss the floaty handling, but I wont miss ****ers knocking five seconds off of a lap because they can pull up the nose and take a detour that cuts out a whole section.

That is the one defining reason why I lost interest in competing on the times tables for Wipeout 3.

Fortunately Pure wont be subject to any of that crap - or negcons.

Concept
25th March 2005, 08:41 PM
I As of now I think I will like it more, but future versions of the game really need the "REAL FEEL" of wipeout back in the game. Someone who has played the games need to be one of the designers. I'll give a real score when I'm done the whole game.

I'm sorry if my comments were perhaps abrasive before.

To be honest though, I think partly the reason myself and T-Money (correct me if I'm wrong) may have reacted the way we did is because of what you said in the quote above.

Do you honestly think that the designers behind Pure haven't played the previous games in the series extensively, or that people close to Studio Liverpool haven't been involved with Wipeout in the past?

As far as I know, there have been three different teams for Wipeout's main series overall so who does know the "REAL FEEL" of the series? From what I've seen it looks as though the development team have tried like hell to return Wipeout back to its original roots.

JABBERJAW
25th March 2005, 10:03 PM
I don't think the developers listened to what Everybody on the forums was saying about the floaty feel, something you should probably do for the hardcore fans. Rob tried to get it, and I'm sure he told them that it should absolutely be floaty and everyone on the forums say the same thing. Not listening to that sort of advice is like shooting yourself in the foot. I think if wipeout xl, 64,1, and 3 can be floaty, pure could have been the same quite easily considering that psp is way more powerful than these systems. I'm sure they could make the buildings solid(so no going through them), or put up an invisible force field where the buildings cannot be solid to stop your progress. Just have the forcefield light up when you hit it. Still give leeway for big jumps, just not half the track. I'm pretty sure the psp is powerful enough to do this sort of thing. Thanks for the info rob about the faster speeds. HOpefully the lead designer on the next game(if this is the final say) will make it floaty again. I'm going to try to play alot tonight to get to the fast speeds.

The real feel of wipeout is wipeout1,xl,64, and 3

I like the japanese version because it's a little less floaty than 3se and doesn't have all the stupid bouncing off the ground into the ceilings of tunnels for no reason. If you want to know what I'm talking about I can explain further.

Colin Berry
26th March 2005, 12:44 AM
A couple of things...

We experimented a lot for a long time with the handling and floatiness of the ships, and we finally settled on something that we felt gave a reasonable balance, the aim was not to exactly recreate the feel of the earlier games, but to head back towards that direction. The earlier games were an inspiration not the blueprint.

For a while we had less floatiness and it felt horrible, the ships felt like bricks, go too much the other way and they felt weightless, like giant feathers. We had the handling slightly floatier for a while and after a period of time we discovered it caused several problems that were detrimental to the game particularly at the higher speed classes, examples
Players could get high enough off jumps to see undrawn areas and there was no room for adding extra buildings due to poly restrictions,
Players could get over walls which would in turn mean a lot more extra collision polys - again something that was limited to a degree.

Also, extra floatiness can cause issues such as
Allowing too much control in the air results in players going through buildings or cutting areas which is not wanted - why labour over the design and feel of a track if you allow people to cut sections out ?

Also when we had the ships floatier the handling didnt feel right in many peoples view.

When we were considering the handling and floatiness it was simple to reduce the gravity and get a floatier feel, however we also had to consider all the knock on effects.



I would also say that it is impossible to listen to what everybody wants as their is no way of satisfying different sets of people who have conflicting opinions. Also, and I realise that isnt what people want to hear but the simple truth of the matter is you have to try to appeal to broad range of people not just the hardcore fans.

That is not to say we aim to abandon the hardcore or that we dont listen to them at all of course we did (and do) over many many aspects, many days were spent reading this forum and the official fusion forum compiling lists of what people liked and didnt like. Yet as the designers we have to also make calls and trust in what we think is right for the game after all that is the responsibility we are given.

Rob did mention several things, some of which we tried to impliment within the boundaries we had, some of which were rejected for other reasons, such as the the shield boost feature from WO3 which is something I am personally not a huge fan of at all. Some things were changed as a direct result of what Rob said, only yesterday (thursday) I adjusted some handling figures based purely (pun not intended) on what Rob said. It is by no means a closed shop where feedback isnt welcome, yet we have to take the feedback from various sources and also for the most part take our own opinions, and attempt to distill everything into something we feel works.

I can appreciate that the handling wont be to everyones taste, no game can ever be perfect in everyones eyes. Some people wont like it as much as an earlier version, some will like it more, the aim is to find something that satisfies as many as possible

We appreciate all the feedback we get both positive and negative, hence the length of this reply ! :)
Your comments on the game Zoolander, as with everyone elses are extremely welcome and appreciated, although if I may clear one other point....

"Someone who has played the games need to be one of the designers."

I can assure you all three designers have, we are fans of the series and we care deeply about the game, its heritage and its future.

Perhaps with further play people who arent instantly taken with the feel will grow to enjoy it


happy easter !

now back to world of warcraft....

silaris
26th March 2005, 02:27 AM
World of Warcraft, very addicting, lol.

As far as the "floating" feel goes, (IMO) it's more inbetween Fusion and (WO- WO3), but the feel is back...a little. Where I recognize the (Fusion) the most is during the first hard turn on Chenghou Project on a heavy turning vehicle, sometimes have to apply both breaks in order to properly turn. This also comes in for Manor Top. This is as of Flash atm. Have yet to see the next 2 classes.


Just to add, not only can the Weapons or a Wrong Turn completely stop you, it can actually Push You Back (!!!).

I was quite annoyed at first with this wall thing but then I'm truely glad walls slow the craft down, which leads to someone having to play like Wipeout, don't touch the walls, make perfect laps. **The funniest thing happened though. Just as I hit a jump, I did the barrel roll landing on the ramps, my ship bounced and fell on its top-side. (Yes, it was upside down) ^-^ I loved it, lol.**


As for zone - - Fusion fans aren't going to like this as much simply because the handling is not Fusion style... it's floaty. No complaints about that decision here.

This is going to take awhile to get used to, hard to see the speed pads at first, but it's not going to start off slow like in Fusion, it'll be a bit faster at first.

This is the hardest Wipeout to grace the series, so it's finally a real challenge to me. Looking forward to Phantom, which will be intense. No complaints coming from me. :)

eLhabib
26th March 2005, 07:58 AM
I've got to say this, even though I'll probably earn some BOOs by Al and some other w'o'' pros:

Stop whining about your beloved bounciness, or rather the lack of it in Pure!
I DON'T CARE if it's less bouncy than the old wipEout games! IT DEFINITELY IS more bouncy than Fusion, and, to be honest, it wasn't even the lack of bounciness that made me dislike Fusion. For me, what made Fusion a bad w'o'' is that it was unbalanced, the art direction was nowhere near w'o'' standards, it wasn't challenging enough, it had at least one terrible framerate drop per race, the anti-aliasing was missing (noticeable in very rough object edges), some tracks - or parts of tracks (freeform, anyone?) - where poorly designed, most of the ships looked crappy (open canopies?! c'mon!), some of the weapons where utter crap (especially the super weapons), then there where these slamming doors on katmoda and temtesh bay... no comment, the forcefield-barriers that blocked unused pieces of track where hazardous if you even touched them ever so slightly, the ship upgrading system was terrible, and overall, it just didn't qite feel like wipEout.

it wasn't just the fact that ships didn't know how to bounce.

What I liked about Fusion was the Zone mode (and, hey, it's in w'o'' Pure!), the Mandrashee track (HEY! that's in Pure, too!), and the design of the EG.r ship (and that just might be in Pure, too...).
So, from my point of view, the developers really got everything right this time around.

G'Kyl
26th March 2005, 10:44 AM
OK, so what is SO exciting about that Mandrashee track? :) I never played Fusion, so I wouldn't know, but people continue to praise it without rest.

I guess you are right, el.habib, one shouldn't complain about things that haven't been taken over from previous installations, since every game has to add something new and move forward in accordance to hardware advancment and the developing needs of gamers. I do, however, understand that a fan of the series is always wanting what gave the earlier games their distinctive touch. And pitch control as well as floatiness have always been among the most notable virtues of Wipeout. Befoe Fusion, that is of course.

Colin: With today's technology I had figured getting more blocking walls would not be a problem. After what you said, though, it seems maxing out the graphical capabilities is probably still treated with higher priority than adding cpu-straining features that the eye will never catch. :) Not to be misunderstood: It is something I sympathize with. None of us would have welcomed PS1 graphics as a trade-off for a perfectly balanced floaty-game, I suppose. ;) I can perfectly understand your argument regarding QA and how they would not give their blessings to some of the problems found in WO 1 through 3.

One question still. You said you adjusted some figures in the game mechanics. Does this mean the EU release of the game is going to differ from the currently available game in a similar way Xl differs from 2097 and 3PAL, 3NTSC and 3SE differ from each other?

Ben

eLhabib
26th March 2005, 11:01 AM
I think the greatness of Mandrashee lies in its rather narrow track design, whereas all the other Fusion tracks are rather broad and don't really challenge pilots in TT. I would say that Mandrashee is about 50% narrower than most of the other tracks and does feature some pretty sharp turns, too. It's also one of the few Fusion tracks where you actually NEED airbrakes on the faster settings. That, combined with beautiful visuals, makes it a lovely experience.

BTW.: Florion Heights' visuals would be my favorite, but the track is just crap! It's WAY too wide, the loop is ridiculous (means boring), and the only thing able of providing a thrill - the big jump - is destroyed by Fusion's terrible flight physics which won't let you adjust where you land AT ALL.

now, back on topic...

Sausehuhn
26th March 2005, 11:17 AM
Florion Heights:
I LOVE this track. Fly it backwards! You are so fast at the end of the looping and then there's this curve after it and it's so... wooo!

Mandrashee:
Fast! So faaaast! And such a beautyful atmosphere and this design! The track is so wonderful! I wonder how it will feel in Pure. They changed all the background, not sure if it still has the same feeling.
Ben, you should try the game!

G'Kyl
26th March 2005, 11:44 AM
I will. :) Within the next month I should be able to lay hands on a PS2 and Fusion and will catch up with you all as soon as I can. :)

Could either of you shortly describe these two tracks, please? I'd like to see them on some screenshots or spot them in the Gamespot video review, I just need to know what to look for. :)

Ben

eLhabib
26th March 2005, 12:17 PM
Florion heights:

http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/wipeout/wipeout_21.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/wipeout/wipeout_17.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/wipeout/wipeout_19.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews2/image/wipeout/wipeout_17.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews2/image/wipeout2/wipeout_18.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/wipeout/wipeout_20.jpg

Mandrashee:

http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/wipeout/wipeout_18.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/wipeout/wipeout_23.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews2/image/wipeout2/wipeout_14.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews2/image/wipeout2/wipeout_2.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews2/image/wipeout/wipeout_16.jpg

that should help.

now back on topic :D

Sausehuhn
26th March 2005, 12:28 PM
I love these pics :D

ehem... yes, back on topic...

rejj
26th March 2005, 12:37 PM
only yesterday (thursday) I adjusted some handling figures based purely (pun not intended) on what Rob said.
So does that mean that downloadable content will also provide patches to the game itself? Or were you tweaking a new downloadable ship?

G'Kyl
26th March 2005, 12:41 PM
Thanks a lot. I figured the latter would be Mandrashee, as it was the most narrow one in the Gamepsot video. I'm unsure though I like the rather brown in brown look of the game too much, at least from what I've seen so far.

By the way, here's something for Lance. The Gamespot reviewer claims the Designers Republic had done all the designs for pre-Fusion Wipeouts (ships etc. included). The birthplace of an urban legend? ;)

Ben

Lance
26th March 2005, 01:59 PM
.
not especially for me. that bit of news about who is spreading the ignorance is of interest to all the people who actually did the work. an uninformed reviewer is an irresponsible reviewer; look at the damage such reviewers do to people's reputations by denying them due credit.
.

Rapier Racer
26th March 2005, 02:01 PM
Remember you canít use NeGcons on Pure! I find pitch control ridiculously difficult to use with a d-pad especially in the faster classes when trying to take a turn and use the pitch at the same time, if the NeGcon could have been used on Pure then fine give me all the pitch control you got! Bit it canít and as such Iím happier to hear about this limited pitch control

Lance
26th March 2005, 02:15 PM
.
interesting point. i didn't use pitch control as much before i started using a neGcon. though now that i know its great benefits on racetimes, i would attempt to use it a lot with D-pad
.

Dimension
26th March 2005, 02:23 PM
I use pitch control a lot seeing as I take a preference to tracks with a lot of height undulations, it's necessary to use pitch control in earlier wipEouts for really competetive times, even with a D-Pad; lack of pitch control seems as if it could spell bad news for vertically inclined wipers (me,) I just hope it's more apparent in Phantom :?

G'Kyl
26th March 2005, 03:45 PM
Very good point, Assagai. "Up" and "down" got pretty dusted on my D-Pad as well. There is just no way for me to competetively coordinate combined x- and y-directions, so from that perspective, Pure certainly scores.
And on another subject, as much as I am going to miss playing Wipeout with a neGcon, I also have to admit Rob has a point when he says it's a good thing all players will be using the exact same equipment for table entries.

Ben

Rapier Racer
26th March 2005, 04:01 PM
Speaking of table entries, I was using the d-pad again for the first time in ages to practice for Pure and I cut 2 seconds of a race and lap time on Hi-Fumii, I couldnít believe it, on other tracks I find myself coming in 10 seconds slower then my best records, guess Iíll have to get rid of the NeGcon bit beside my table name

Colin Berry
26th March 2005, 07:19 PM
only yesterday (thursday) I adjusted some handling figures based purely (pun not intended) on what Rob said.
So does that mean that downloadable content will also provide patches to the game itself? Or were you tweaking a new downloadable ship?

I was referring purely to the downloadable ships, not the main game.

eLhabib
26th March 2005, 07:50 PM
please tell me EG.r is gonna be in. PLEASE?

Seek100
26th March 2005, 09:19 PM
I should imagine initially we'll get the teams that have new purE style team logos in the avatar section (Goteki 45, Icaras, Van-‹ber RD, and Tigron Enterprises) at least that's the impression I got from those teams getting shiny new logos, anything you can tell us about the extra teams Mr. Berry?

Colin Berry
26th March 2005, 10:15 PM
I'm afraid not, (sorry) its one of those things that I cant mention until an official announcement has been made, though I am sure something along those lines will happen soon.

There is certainly going to be plenty to keep people going and hopefully happy.
:)

Concept
26th March 2005, 10:39 PM
E3? :D

gbit
26th March 2005, 11:12 PM
Pitch control is very difficult for me to do on a d-pad. However, I play w'o" 3se with a keyboard, and pitching up and down while turning is very precise and easy to do. While I can do a 32 second lap on megamall with the keyboard, the fastest I can go with a dual shock 2 is 37 seconds. Big difference I would say.

Looking at the way w'o" pure handles, if true pitch control had been added, it would have made the game very difficult to play (properly).

[edit: Also, the way w'o" pure handles is very nice the way it is, and playing with the psp's d-pad is a trouble-free precision experience. This was my biggest fear in buying the psp, but it turned out not to be a problem at all.]

G'Kyl
27th March 2005, 05:02 AM
Gbit: Are you playing Playstation games on an emulator? I'm primarily asking because part of the difference between your fastest lap times with keyboard and d-pad could be results from playing on different systems.

Ben

Chill
27th March 2005, 06:22 AM
please tell me EG.r is gonna be in. PLEASE?
Just what I thought, EG.r is a lot like Assegai. Doesn't anyone else think so? :roll:
btw: haven't tried the PSP yet, but I think it would be cool to give it the ability to be used with a controller. I guess we can always see what the future will bring us, mabye. :wink:

Asche XL
27th March 2005, 04:43 PM
Is it just me, or do you all of the ships pass you at start, no matter how fast you're going. This is something i've noticed on every race. I'll get a perfect start with the fastest vehicle and feisar will soar by me.

Sausehuhn
27th March 2005, 04:47 PM
Just what I thought, EG.r is a lot like Assegai. Doesn't anyone else think so?
NO!!! :x
EG.r is so much better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink: :D

Lance
27th March 2005, 05:31 PM
.
Chill, have you piloted an Assegai? i thought you only had Fusion, which doesn't have the Assegai team?
.

Rapier Racer
27th March 2005, 07:20 PM
*Blasts a Plasma Bolt in Sausehuhns direction*

Thruster2097
27th March 2005, 07:23 PM
:lol:
heh, that's fighting talk coming from a van-uber!
:lol: :wink:

Say there, :assegaidevelopments,
Just why do you have a van-uber tag?
Always wanted to ask..

Rapier Racer
27th March 2005, 07:27 PM
Well Assegai is my favourite team but Van-Uber are oh so close to the top of the list as well so, the best way for me to represent/show my likeness for the two teams was to have Assegai for my user name and a Van-Uber avatar, if they werenít going to be on pure I guess I would have just kept my Assegai one. I like the underdogish weak teams, it was especially a challenge on Fusion but the rewards came when I was able to sneak up behind a Tigron witch had almost full shield and blast it with the ole Seismic :twisted: almost destroying it, oo enough of my ranting

Thruster2097
27th March 2005, 07:30 PM
thats cool. Just wondered :wink:

gbit
27th March 2005, 07:32 PM
Gbit: Are you playing Playstation games on an emulator? I'm primarily asking because part of the difference between your fastest lap times with keyboard and d-pad could be results from playing on different systems.

Ben

Yes, I am using an emulator, but I have a dual shock 2 connected to my computer (with one of those usb dongles), so the times are consistent with each other.

Sausehuhn
27th March 2005, 07:40 PM
Do I understand you right? You're playing Pure with an emulator at your PC monitor with a PS2 controller and it works?!? 8O
___

*activates shield, slows down, waits for the moment AssegaiDevelopment is in front of him and blasts a Plasma Bolt directly into the ship*
;)

Concept
27th March 2005, 07:45 PM
They're talking about Wipeout 3: Special Edition being played via PC Emulation.

Sausehuhn
27th March 2005, 08:12 PM
ou.. ehem...okay :oops:

Thruster2097
27th March 2005, 08:17 PM
:sausehuhn, :assegaidevelopments

we really need to get an online wipeout tourney sorted....

Rapier Racer
27th March 2005, 08:53 PM
Yes indeed we do, but the whole going online thing seems a bit unclear and looks like it will require some cash to be spent if it is possible

Sausehuhn, you shot at the wrong Assegai :twisted:

lunar
27th March 2005, 08:58 PM
AFAICT getting online with Pure would just require broadband plus a wireless router plus KAI. But I might be getting the wrong end of the forest here, let alone the stick.

Sausehuhn
27th March 2005, 09:06 PM
What the hell...
ou man, you're right.
hehe, see ya 300 meters behind me, Assegai Developments :twisted:
Nah, I won't stop to eleminate you with my quake, I will fly over the finish line and end the race with the first place . 8)

Thrusty:
this is exactly what we need!

Rapier Racer
27th March 2005, 09:25 PM
wireless routers aren't cheap are they? I might be a little short after buying a Euro PSP

*Walks over to EG-R trackside pit type thing and in a show of utter disgust and poor sportsmanship, smack pilots with steel rod*

I think Iíll stop this now before I annoy Lance :bombhead

gbit
27th March 2005, 09:38 PM
You do not need a wireless router to play w'o" pure online, and even if you have one, you can't use it anyway. Xlink uses the psp's adhoc functionality to allow play over the internet, so what you need is a computer that has wireless, so the psp is able to connect to your computer.

You can either use a pci wireless card, or a usb based one, or a laptop that has wireless built in.

I need to find one of those usb wifi cards so I can play pure online, but I can't find any cheap ones here in Canada. :cry:

Lance
27th March 2005, 10:32 PM
.
too late for that, AD. and S. already happened further back. ;)
.

rejj
28th March 2005, 01:50 AM
edit: arr. I made a boo-boo.. misunderstood what was being said. silly me.

eLhabib
28th March 2005, 02:25 AM
*Blasts a Plasma Bolt in Sausehuhns direction*

but EG.r LOOKS BETTER! 8)

*opens fire at Assegai's Van-Uber craft with a crappy Plasma Cannon but still finishes him off :lol: *

Lance
28th March 2005, 02:40 AM
.
back to topic, please
.

G'Kyl
28th March 2005, 06:38 AM
Gbit: I too have been more comfortable with keyboard control than the D-Pad. I didn't compare times, though, since I used the keys with 2097 PC and then traded them for the Dual Shock when I got the PSX version. The thing is that keyboard control gives you seperate x- and y-axes and thus makes pitch control a LOT easier.

By the way, do you plan on adding times to the WOZ tables? If so, please don't use records achieved by playing on an emulator. Emulated games run differently than their originals, which can give you lap times faster or slower than when playing on a PSX. Yes, the thing is that everbody (including me) is much concerned about their position in the tables. :) And rightfully so. Let's keep the tables as competitive as possible.

Ben

JABBERJAW
28th March 2005, 02:32 PM
Rob, your saying it was like fusion and quantum redshift is right on, It does get floaty on bumps which is great.
PItch on flats is completely different than in the air, In previous games the higher your ship went up, you had a slightly higher scraping radius on the turns, but your ship went a little slower. This didn't mean you flew further when you went off a jump because you could pitch higher. This is a separate issue from the flight on the jumps. I understand that you don't want people flying through buildings, and I don't either, but "invisible walls" like the older games could stop this from happening, or a better idea of a force field where you don't want people going where it lights up when you hit it and come crashing down. This could be just before buildings that are not solid or where someone could just cut the whole track off. Either option is better than pitch not doing much in the air, although not a perfect solution I admit.
Sometimes ways need to be found to acomodate the hardcore. PItch control was one of them. 99% of people on this site wanted that feel back, and now I fear that a ps3 version will lose it as well. This was the main issue that was present from fusion until now, but not resolved. People do have a reason to be upset by this. Luckily for me, I love Quantum redshift, and this game is quite similar, so I'll play it alot at some point, but do not want to review it now, because I haven't seen the whole game yet. As of now I would give it an 87 or so, and haven't even seen the top two fast speeds.
Is there any chance of putting a patch out to stop the completely stopping your ship on a weapon hit. That is extremely frustrating.
On a side note, I have only played up to flash class, and that is quite fast. All the previews for the game said it was slower. They must have just played the slower classes and decided then?

Also, zone does not feel floaty, I think because of the way the tracks are made, but the brakes work more than in fusion. Is that what you are talking about?

gbit
28th March 2005, 02:47 PM
...By the way, do you plan on adding times to the WOZ tables? If so, please don't use records achieved by playing on an emulator. Emulated games run differently than their originals, which can give you lap times faster or slower than when playing on a PSX. Yes, the thing is that everbody (including me) is much concerned about their position in the tables. :) And rightfully so. Let's keep the tables as competitive as possible.

Ben

I am very much aware of the differences that arise in times made on emulators versus those on a real psx :). Even though that 32 second time puts me in the number 2 spot for megamall on rapier class, I was using an emulator, so it is not valid. (btw, I got that time with the assegai, which is slower than the icaras :)).

infoxicated
28th March 2005, 03:17 PM
Al - you can rant about it as much as you like, but it's not going to change anything in Wipeout Pure.

Maybe if you'd been here on a regular basis for the last two years you could have driven your point home over time. But from what I can gather you've been on the witness protection scheme since you gave up on Wipeout Fusion in fall 2002, if memory serves.

Colin doesn't believe that Wipeout should be that way. The physics programmer is from Curly Monsters and worked on QR - so he doesn't believe the ships should obey aircraft like aerodynamics either. The last game that did behave that way was Wipeout 3 and that's coming up for six years old - the studio is gone, the team are gone, and that particular style of play is most probably gone forever.

Trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced is a waste of time - this is their game, their take on it.

It sucks that the flight model is gone - totally agree with you there. But it is gone and Pure isn't getting rave reviews for nothing - it might play different but it's good at what it does and it's appealing to the masses in a way that Wipeout 3 never did.

Moral of story: Just because your old dog ran away doesn't mean you should pick fault in your new dog.

Sausehuhn
28th March 2005, 03:59 PM
Two things:

1.
How is the handling now in Pure?! I've heard so many different thing about it. Some people said it would be like in the older games, this floaty feeling. you know what I mean. And now I read these posts and think "What's going on here?! At first they said it would be the return of the game and now they're saying it never will be!?"
So what is the game like?! It is floaty (the flying itself) and just stops you when you're hidden by a weapon? Or it is like it was in Fusion, nothing floaty?!
I think there's a differnce between that. I think the game would be wonderful when this floaty thing is back, that's it what makes the series so good, the way you're hidden by a weapon is - in my opinion - not as important as some people say.
At the moment I really don't know what I should think about the game! :|

2.
It's okay, that zone does not feel floaty - I think. How will you handle the speed at the higher zone level when you don't have a good control and your ship is going up and down over the track? No, I think that wouldn't be good.
At the other hand it's a problem in single race, time trial etc. The float should be there in this modes. You cannot make a floaty feeling for all ships and then another for one ship in a normal mode. :roll:

Chill
28th March 2005, 04:09 PM
...Moral of story: Just because your old dog ran away doesn't mean you should pick fault in your new dog.
I don't mean to step in, but Wipeout is merely a disk, an object, not life. It doesn't feel bad for changing it, and I know, it's life lies in it's creators, but the creators can change without much care, or else they wouldn't have been able to change from Wipeout 3 to Wipeout Fusion to Wipeout Pure, ya? :wink: And it's about the people, so in this case, it would be about the dog owner rather than the dog itself. This dog has no life. It's a spirit that's passed through other lives of dogs, which resembles other Wipeouts, if your following along ok. It should be strong enough to change again. Of course, you can't change Wipeout Pure for what it already is, but you can change the future, which is why ZOOLANDER's post isn't yet worthless. So, as I see it, the dog has nothing to do with Wipeout, unless I'm gonna be proven wrong, which I probably will. :roll:

Seek100
28th March 2005, 04:13 PM
So basicaly the studio tell us it's just like old wipEout with proper physics so we buy the game, only then do we find out that they don't really care about the old physics or the fans who want the proper handling back and we get Fusion2 yes?

I'm not so sure I'm gonna buy this now, purE is pretty much the only reason I might buy a PSP at the moment, it's a lot of money to spend for one game and if it's gonna be like Fusion I'm not sure it's worht the outlay. Obviously SL won't be bothered by one fan not buying the game as I'm sure purE will sell by the bucketload.

Maybe in another 6 years when another teams gets to make a take on it the physics will be brought back.

Rapier Racer
28th March 2005, 05:32 PM
Is there any chance of putting a patch out to stop the completely stopping your ship on a weapon hit. That is extremely frustrating

That happens on WO 3 doesnít it? When you get hit by Multi Missiles

Angryman
28th March 2005, 05:45 PM
so there is no pitch control in Pure??

:(

Thats very disapointing, half the fun in controling a wipeout ag craft is the pitch controls.
I'll still buy a PSP and Pure, but if i do not enjoy controlling the game as much as i did 2097 it will be the final Wipeout game that i purchase. :cry:

gbit
28th March 2005, 05:48 PM
The craft behaviour after weapon hits and near weapon hits is very interesting I must say.

I have been sent backwards by some explosions, and once, even from a rocket I fired into a wall that was very close at the time.

It can be very frustrating, though, especially in the higher classes, where the A.I. actually starts using weapons in a strategic manner.

But this just adds another dimension to the game, so it is not such a problem, and re-introduces a big part of the wipeout experience (atleast for me): luck.

BenjaminBirdie
28th March 2005, 09:39 PM
So basicaly the studio tell us it's just like old wipEout with proper physics so we buy the game, only then do we find out that they don't really care about the old physics or the fans who want the proper handling back and we get Fusion2 yes?

I think it's pretty safe to say that everyone who feels that way is probably registered on this site. (800something, last time I cheked?) Out of that number, some of them probably don't feel as stringently about those issues (say, me). So, if you consider that on launch alone, Sony produced 1,000,000 PSPs and is expecting to sell an assload more than that. And I don't think its too much for producers to want say, half of those people to play and enjoy Wipeout Pure. So, do they concern themselves with such a small small small SMALL percentage of their target audience and emulate games that are fast approaching ten years old? Completely abandon things that have been learned since then, ignoring huge shifts in gaming trends and basically guarantee the end of Wipeout?

I said this before when this sort of speculation was rampant around here, but all the games in this series still exist and are no doubt still played by all of us. Nobody likes to hear that fans of the series, the people who built the series up from where it started, are unhappy with the latest iteration and are even considering eschewing the game entirely. But realistically, pinning your efforts on the whims of such a select few, no matter how vocal, is just never a good idea. Just look at the comic book industry.

It's been distressing to see the game slagged not because of what it is, but because of what it realistically never could be, but everyone's entitled to their opinion and everyone has the right to buy or not buy the game. It is, after all, an at least $300 investment. But I can't help wondering what people might thing about Wipeout Pure on its own merits, and not how much or how little it holds to previous iterations. All the hype about about it being and playing more like Wipeout XL was not directed at the people who played the hell out of XL and broke every record, then proceeded to do the same thing to Wip3out. It was directed to the people who thought Wipeout XL was a fun game with a bitching soundtrack and then promptly abandoned the series entirely in later iterations.

eLhabib
28th March 2005, 09:58 PM
guys, seriously, stop picking around those of you who have never played Pure! Rent it if you will, and witness it's greatness for yourself before you drop it like it was crippled. Floaty or not, this game most definitely rocks!

Seek100
28th March 2005, 10:18 PM
So, do they concern themselves with such a small small small SMALL percentage of their target audience and emulate games that are fast approaching ten years old? Completely abandon things that have been learned since then, ignoring huge shifts in gaming trends and basically guarantee the end of Wipeout?

The thing is there is nothing wrong with the physics engine in those ten year old games, I hardly think you can identify a huge shift in gaming trends that says everyone apart from us so-called 'hardcore' hates 2097's physics engine.


It is, after all, an at least $300 investment.

Exactly, for some of us that's a very large investment for a game and console that may end up gathering dust.


But I can't help wondering what people might thing about Wipeout Pure on its own merits, and not how much or how little it holds to previous iterations.

Well as long as we remember the previous iterations we're always going to compare a new game with them, if a band you like releases a new album won't you compare it with their older material? Or a film sequel, wouldn't people be reasonably expected to compare it to the first film?

I'm sure I'll end up getting it in the end on blind faith that it can't be as bad as I think and I'm just paranoid about it after what happened with Fusion.

Hybrid Divide
28th March 2005, 10:22 PM
I think and I'm just paranoid about it after what happened with Fusion.

Don't be. The physics might be a little different. But I think they're great. And again, this is MUCH better than Fusion.

zargz
28th March 2005, 10:31 PM
BenjaminBirdie: I'm with you all the way man! :D


guys, seriously, stop picking around those of you who have never played Pure! Rent it if you will, and witness it's greatness for yourself before you drop it like it was crippled. Floaty or not, this game most definitely rocks!and with you too!
I won't Air my opinion till I've played the whole game!


Praeterea censeo autopilotum esse delendam

gbit
28th March 2005, 10:48 PM
It most definitely does rock. :D

zargz
28th March 2005, 10:50 PM
8) heh! I do belive you but I'll wait till I get my hands on it! ;)


Praeterea censeo autopilotum esse delendam

lunar
29th March 2005, 10:13 AM
I can understand the reasons for cutting down on pitch control in Pure - without a negcon its a pretty difficult art. Having said that you can still have "floatiness" without a lot of pitch control and it would be a mistake to give up on this part of Wipeout. Wipeout is one of the few futuristic racers that`s been a commercial success. It would be a mistake to forget that a large part of the success was down to the fact that its a unique driving experience, largely due to the flight factor. Its not just another driving game, but with wacky futuristic graphics and backgrounds. Extreme G3 was such a game - and the company which made that went bust. Fusion failed mainly because it did not float and had none of the wipeout "magic" in its gameplay. Even casual players saw that. The company which made Quantum Redshift also went bust. None of these 3 games would be a great model for wipeout to follow in the future - commercially speaking and regardless of the wishes of us "hardcore" players. Gamers are not easily fooled, and Wipeout must retain its special feeling to stay alive in the long term, IMHO. Its easier for Pure to be a success now than it would be in a crowded marketplace. It only has to beat Ridge Racer to be crowned best PSP driving game. That doesn`t mean I`m saying its not worthy of being succesful - its just that its been marketed well and released at the right time - well done SL for that.

I`m not passing an opinion of Pure here, as I`m obviously not qualified to do so, but can someone who has played Pure tell me whether it feels like you`re off the ground in a machine that`s flying, or not? In first person view, could you just as easily be in a car? The answer to this last question in wipeout 1-3 would be "no way." In fusion "yes." What about Pure?

Lack of pitch control wasn`t my biggest issue with Fusion. The issue was that it could sometimes be a good tactic to hit a wall. For me this takes away the very essence of the game. In WO 1-3 there is no situation I know of where hitting a wall could result in a faster race time. Can someone who`s played Pure tell me whether it could ever be a good tactic to hit a wall?

I noticed on one of the videos that you seem to lose shield energy for getting respawned. Kudos for that!!!

def
29th March 2005, 10:55 AM
after a few days solid of playing pure i can tell you that piloting a ship is not like driving a wheeled vehicle. The physics feel like they should, like your going a couple hundred kph a few feet off the ground. In first person there is a liberal amount of lean and bumps in the tracks toss you up and let you settle back. On phantom class races your almost forced to use the analog stick ( i myself am a huge fan of the d-pad ) to keep your ship where you want it to be ( not flying off the track ). The gravity also has an effect on how you pilot, if the track is sideways you have to compensate for the acceleration due to gravity.

The wall collisions in pure work pretty well, i havent come upon a time where hitting a wall would help at all. The deceleration isnt as rough as XL but it definately slows you down. And yea, going off the track dings shields ^_^

yawnstretch
29th March 2005, 12:45 PM
it. is. good.

dat iz al

8O 8) :D :lol: :twisted:

JABBERJAW
29th March 2005, 02:14 PM
"Because of what it never could be".
Does this mean you are saying a far superior system couldn't possibly do the same physics model as ps1 or n64? I don't think that is valid.

The studio did say that they were were returning to the old physics, I forgot that, but everyone on here saw the video and knew what they were getting.

I check the site all the time, but just do not post a bunch. However, I don't think my point would ever be driven home to someone who does not want to hear it. It was a well known fact that everyone wanted ships that could go up and down rather than just one plain. That is why we like wipeout better than fzero. The weapon thing can be averted I think with well placed shields and turbos, and just racing great and taking the lead as quickly as possible. Stopping on a weapon his is not just a problem with this game, but every wipeout game where it brings you to a halt with a lot of the weapons, which is frustrating, but avoidable with the correct tactics.
I guess I word my suggestions for the next game the wrong way that gets peoples panties into a twist. Sorry. I just want the next wipeout game on the ps3 to feel like the old ones, with better wall slowdown(something like pure). A quick note to colin berry. I love quantum redshift, as much as wipeout xl, So wipeout pure is a really good game, one I will play for a long time, just not what a lot of people expected, so forgive us for our complaints, we like the game, we just wanted some of the old style. I think I'll make a post for what we like about pure, and what we think should be different. I think that would be more constructive.

Lunar, riding a wall on a corner slows you down more than making a nice turn. If you use turbo to ride the wall, that can be faster, but not faster than making a airbrake turn, then using the turbo right after.

as far as the floatiness, it's similar to QR, probably not as pronounced because I think wipeout pure has less bumps where you wouldn't see it, but I haven't seen all the tracks yet.

UncleZeiv
29th March 2005, 02:27 PM
Edit: Al has clarified everything in the above post, so mine here is useless now :D

First of all, I feel that I have to state that I have not played Pure yet, and I probably won't at least until the euro release. But I would like to point out that no wipeout release has been just an expansion pack to a previous one; every release has always introduced some new concept and got rid of some old one. And every single time we lost something and we gained something else. I think that changes are welcome as long as the resulting game is consistent. When wip3out was released, I remember a lot of people and of reviews moaning about it being different from 2097; nonetheless, wip3out was consistent and a lot of people ended up appreciating it a lot. Honestly, I don't think that the point with Fusion was "pitch control"; it was the whole design which was confused and not wipeout-ish (for example, the tracks were so different from the past that maybe not even an old-style handling would have provided that "wipeout feel" that was lost).
So the point with Pure, at least for me, is: is it consistent? Will I continue playing it after achieving 100%? If the answers are "yes" to both questions, I will be satisfied. Then I may prefer wip3out anyway, but that's another matter.

_dave_

ps- maybe it would be better to complete a fair percentage of the game before attempting to review it :P And Al... you are complaining about weapons like the most casual of the casual players would, not like a top-class pilot as you are! :twisted: :P :)

JABBERJAW
29th March 2005, 02:43 PM
I don't know how many times on lap 5 on wipeout 64 that I couldn't pick up a shield and take a weapon hit to stop completely, pause, yell, reset :D That is not a major complaint.

Asche XL
30th March 2005, 04:13 AM
I've only unlocked up to FLASH but I have this to say:

It's not Wipeout
It's not Wipeout XL
It's not Wipeout 3
It's not Wipeout Fusion

It's Wipeout Pure, again, not at all like any of the previous games. It's a brand new game. If you want ( yet another ) take on how the series should progress, then check this out. It's a real fun game ( and quite difficult I might add). If you want ANY of the past games reincarnated, you'l be disapointed, that's the bottom line.

I, being one of the many who think XL is the crowning champion by far over anything ever branded with the wipeout name, think pure is a fun game. The pitch control, so far, isn't really there at all, but you do feel like you are racing an AG craft. It bobs, and slides around with the airbrakes, etc. The graphics (wo 3 like) are great, sound is great ( wo: 3 and XL's soundtracks destory this one's, but I hear you'l be able to dl new songs for this).

Final thought: Buy this if you want (another) brand-new experience with wo. If you're looking for any revamped previous versions, you-will-not-like-this. It is a lot better than fusion though.