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ColdRem'S
3rd September 2006, 10:12 AM
Nice idea Zerow!
I love the idea that FEISAR is European, Qirex is Russian, Auricom American, etc. This creates the feeling of a real world, with a real challenge.So why not local tournaments to begin, and then international ones?Nice idea Zerow!:clap

Sausehuhn
3rd September 2006, 02:38 PM
That's the reason why Fusion felt more like a real sport to me - because there was so much background information about all the pilots, ships, tracks and teams and when you selected tracks you actually saw where they were (on a world map) and the intro of the race (with the ships coming out of the hangar) felt so real.

Now (just as an example) give us a short overview of the track at the beginning of the race (like you have it in Ridge Racer) and more infos and add acting (!) spectators and the whole thing feels a lot realer.

And I would also really like to see what you said Zerow.

JABBERJAW
3rd September 2006, 04:11 PM
I hope the acting is just like quantum redshift :)

Chill
3rd September 2006, 07:52 PM
Exactly Sausehuhn, that's another reason why I liked Fusion, as well as the music. It felt a bit more modern and realistic to me, just my opinion anyway... ;)

Zerow
3rd September 2006, 10:59 PM
Yes, a more detailed on-screen analysis of the teams, pilots and tracks like in Fusion will be most welcomed by me as well. Again, it would give a heightened sense of 'being there' and reality.

bakkufu
4th September 2006, 08:16 AM
the question is how would grid position be worked out? qualifying sessions for the tracks perhaps? I think things like that would be great fun to do, nice 3d render like they do with the F1 at the moment showing positions after qualifying, then onto the race intro would be kinda cool!

Airrider
4th September 2006, 01:45 PM
WipEout with ship classes as well as speed classes would be a great equalizer, since there's gonna be a class combo that SOMEone's gonna be good at. Maybe there's, y'know, an ultra-light class, a heavy craft class, one with a certain amount of engine power, the ships we all think of classified as Unlimited Class or Ultimate Class...and the regional-to-international thing sounds awesome!

ace-of-spades
4th September 2006, 08:46 PM
I dont know if someone has suggested this, or if it is already in a game, but i would like to see team racing, ala Superbikes or Moto GP, with maybe four pilots on a team. If there was a tournament mode, this would mean that instead of an individual pilot winning, it would be a team victory, or perhaps "bonus points" could be awarded for winning the tournament individually and for said player's team winning, or bonus features unlocked for winning one or the other or both etc. There could also be team orders given out during the season, to let another team mate win if he gains pole position for instance, and penalties (or perhaps rewards...) for violating the team orders.

This would come into it's own with multiple human players, it would introduce a much more tactical element to the game, espescially if we had say four players, with two players and two CPUs on a team each. Perhaps to unlock a certain feature would require a number of points, which can only be achieved by a single player winning each race, and a team achieving a certain amount of points together, meaning that the other team mates would have to race for someone else to win.

It would also go well with the background, because alot of the teams are using racing to sell something else, ala Honda wanting to sell it's motorcycles for instance. It would be very important to say Quirex that a Quirex win the series, because that will boost both sales and prestige for Quirex's market products.

Of course there is the dilemma of over complexity, but over longer tracks with more laps, this feature would be easier to implement, and if we can have weapons on or off on the options screen, then we could easily have a team feature with an on/off toggle. Team racing would be a neat feature for the aforementioned "career mode" idea.

Airrider
5th September 2006, 01:52 AM
Not a bad application of the team racing idea. Maybe have a driver's and constructor's championship like in F1?
More complex, longer tracks would be more fun for me. Finishing is more of an achievement like that.

Sausehuhn
5th September 2006, 03:23 PM
Something like an port of F1 (league system) into the future would be great imo :)

ace-of-spades
5th September 2006, 10:30 PM
One simple tweak as well, more and longer straights with gentle exits, for those breakneck drag strip moments, espescially just before the finish line.

Zerow
5th September 2006, 10:48 PM
Indeed ace-of-spades, I too would like to see much longer straights - much longer tracks overall, in fact.

This also opens up the possibility of actual drag racing in the next WipEout, but I can't see how this could be implemented fairly. Ships that are quick off the mark like AG Systems would wipe the floor with the more sluggish accelerating ships.

Lance
5th September 2006, 10:50 PM
ace-of-spades, those long straights give your opponent way too long a time to shoot at you and too clear a shot.

--------------------

Zerow, you want much longer tracks, but you want drag races, which by their nature are brief?

Zerow
5th September 2006, 10:55 PM
Did I actually say specifically that I wanted to see drag racing?

I was merely hinting at the idea, and the drawback that, more than likely, it's implementation would not be successful.

ace-of-spades
6th September 2006, 05:46 PM
Yeah, the thought came to mind for me, but then i had the same hangups. Whichever ship has the fastest acceleration or top speed would always win... If there was an option to design your own ship then i guess you could design drag racers, but im not sure there is much fun in that anyways...

And there are tracks with long straights in already in Wipeout 3 where i dont have problems, the straight before the finish line in Mega Mall for instance. If theres the threat of being shot at, its one i tend to just outrun with the boost on.

bakkufu
6th September 2006, 05:57 PM
I'd like to see much wider tracks in places, giving more overtaking and dogfighting opportunities. Also drafting would be a good function to subtly add as well!

ace-of-spades
6th September 2006, 06:00 PM
You mean like slipstreaming? I thought maybe the pace was too fast for that to really work.

bakkufu
6th September 2006, 07:45 PM
the faster the object you are slipstreaming, the bigger the effect, thats what makes it viable!

ace-of-spades
6th September 2006, 08:27 PM
But i tend to find that i dont stay behind people very long, it tends to be back and forth for positions as opposed to slipstreaming with a sudden overtake, ala bicycle racing for instance.

It is a really cool idea though, if there was a good way to do it that would be awesome.

Lance
6th September 2006, 08:54 PM
Did I actually say specifically that I wanted to see drag racing?

I was merely hinting at the idea, and the drawback that, more than likely, it's implementation would not be successful.

Generally one doesn't even think of these things unless one wants to see them, yes? No?

I know I would never have thought of Wipeout drag racing. But that's just me.

lunar
6th September 2006, 09:49 PM
:beer for the drafting idea. It would be hard to do on some of the wobblier tracks, and should not be overdone to give an Outrun-type slingshot effect, just a slow improvement in pace enabling you to catch up gradually if you can hold the draft for long enough. The main benefit is that it could be a great multiplayer feature. Do you dare to draft your enemy, at the risk of a sudden bomb in the face? Lovely. :)

Zerow
6th September 2006, 10:33 PM
I too like the sound of drafting. It works well in Mario Kart DS (will you draft Donkey Kong and risk him dropping a banana peel right in front of you?), so it could well work in WipEout.


Generally one doesn't even think of these things unless one wants to see them, yes? No?

This is not always the case. For example, I have in the past quite often thought about a meteour striking the planet, wiping out the human race. But of course, there's no way I want that to happen as long as I'm still alive.

Do you understand where I'm coming from? Again, if I had wanted to see drag racing in the next WipEout, I would've expressed this desire very clearly in my post, which I didn't. All I did was bring up the idea.

ace-of-spades
7th September 2006, 10:26 AM
But if there was only a gradual improvement in speed for slipstreaming, then im not sure it would feel like its worth it, in such a high speed race as wipeout. It could be useful for some of the slower ships. What kind of distance back from a ship were you thinking for a slipstream? Like 3-4 ship lengths?

The thing with drag racing is that i think it would need to be like a specialist drag competition with special ships. Which im not sure i like...

Airrider
7th September 2006, 02:21 PM
You could have a dragrace like the ones in Kirby Air Ride, that is, it's not just a straight line but a gauntlet of jumps, track changes (i.e. width, angle, etc.) a few weapon pads, turbo pads...so, say, Triakis has an advantage in its sheilds, AG-5Y5 has an an advantage in its acceleration to make distance early, Icaras has straight-line speed, Feisar can react quickly to a changing track...

Sausehuhn
7th September 2006, 02:46 PM
Do you guys really mean a drag race or a point-to-point race?

The last one is something really cool, short fun without having a short track (but a short number of laps; 1 to be exactly :P).
It works fine with WipEout as we could see with Fusion (Devilia).

lunar
7th September 2006, 02:58 PM
@Ace, I`ve had multiplayer races where drafting could have been a great factor, following the same ship very closely for a few laps. It would be most likely to happen on a Delta track, or something similarly straight like Sinucit. I think about 3 lengths back would be about right for the beginning of the effect, increasing as you get closer. Turbos, speed pads, bumps and bends would all make it difficult to draft someone. It really should be hard to do, and pretty much impossible or ineffective on most of a windy track like Citta Nuova. :)

What I would hate to see is it becoming such a factor that it starts to define the racing, but it could be just another aspect of a race to think about.

Airrider
7th September 2006, 04:33 PM
That's true. It's like pitch control: A little trick one can use to gain a little edge, but not much more.

ace-of-spades
7th September 2006, 09:50 PM
Do you guys really mean a drag race or a point-to-point race?

I mean like a quarter mile sprint, as fast as you can go over a straight track. Although i think the Airrider's idea is easier to put into practice, and would be alot more fun.

And i guess with human competition being so much more precise than against CPUs, slipstreaming could be a factor.

Zerow
7th September 2006, 10:32 PM
Agreed with the above. If drafting is actually put into practice, it should only be able to gain you a very slight advantage over the ship right in front of you, not a significant one.

eLhabib
8th September 2006, 06:14 AM
I don't see how a quarter-mile race could work/be fun in wipEout. The challenge of a quarter-mile race is to accelerate right so the wheels don't spin out and also to shift very precisely to get the maximum out of the acceleration. Since both these things don't exist in the wipEout universe, it would come down to 'pressing-down-x-for-15-seconds'...

bakkufu
8th September 2006, 10:34 AM
Agreed with the above. If drafting is actually put into practice, it should only be able to gain you a very slight advantage over the ship right in front of you, not a significant one.

agreed, would just be a nice touch to allow for a bit more competition when overtaking!

ace-of-spades
8th September 2006, 10:41 AM
I don't see how a quarter-mile race could work/be fun in wipEout. The challenge of a quarter-mile race is to accelerate right so the wheels don't spin out and also to shift very precisely to get the maximum out of the acceleration. Since both these things don't exist in the wipEout universe, it would come down to 'pressing-down-x-for-15-seconds'...
Exactly, doesent make for alot of fun really. Thats why Airrider's idea is by far the best.

Distrupto
20th September 2006, 01:46 AM
Drafting and slipstreaming in WO is unrealistic. It happens in car racing, but with a thrust trail on your nose, how do you slipstream?

I'd like something else in WO. That is, the ships changing as they get hit by weapons adn their shield depletes/recharges. Currently, in Pure, the effects of a weapon or wall hit is some of the shield bar coming off and you slowing down, getting stopped, hurled sideways, etc. No real physical change happens until your shield is totally gone, when your ship explodes into a wreck, then explodes again into absolutely nothing. I'd rather have parts of the ship flying off as weapons hit them, paint getting scraped away as you rub a wall, thrust trails reducing and getting replaced with plumes of black smoke trailing from your ship, and most importantly, this should effect your ships performance. Like if your giving off more smoke than thrust, obviously your thrust and top speed stats should decrease. If an airbrake gets ripped off by rockets, obviously you shouldn't be able to use that airbrake like nothing happened, or use it at all. That way, you can see what the condition of your opponents is and plan your tactics midrace. Also, ships with strong shields should be affected by this as much as those with less. That way everyone won't be jumping in a Triakis. Obviously it would look a lot uglier to have hunks of burning scrap metal running around, but I'd rather have an interesting race. Also, any Coke/Puma types advertising ships' ads can be done away with without taking the trouble to eliminate them if you blow the ads right off the ship. With shield recharges, a type of wuss-wagon could come over you, repair you somewhat in about half a second and leave. How's the idea?

Chill
20th September 2006, 02:04 AM
^^^^^^^^
Agreed completely. Though the slipstream idea would make sense, more air power from the craft in front of you giving you more power to work with, but I don't thing it would be a great idea to play with. ;)

Task
20th September 2006, 03:16 AM
That is, the ships changing as they get hit by weapons adn their shield depletes/recharges.



I think that whole concept is against the grain of WO.
You've got a gravity-based shield on a lightweight racecraft.
Lightweight meaning that if you get hit with anything, you're toast.
Gravity-based shield meaning that as long as you've got shield power, nothing can get near you.

Those two concepts are married together beautifully.

Lightweight racecraft taking a couple missiles and holding together with just a couple pieces breaking off? No, I don't see it at all.

Sausehuhn
20th September 2006, 05:11 PM
There was already a damage-simulaor in fFusion (which changed handling based on the energy bar, not on the parts of the crafts that were hit) and there were a lot of people who didn't like it.

I liked it though. Maybe it's an alternative to that real damage that disables your brakes when they're hit.

But even when there's no damage simulator in the game please give us visual damage. And I mean visual damage at the parts that really got bombed. Not a damaged truster when you crashed with the nose into a wall.

°o°O PiranhA >>>>
20th September 2006, 06:31 PM
Is this already written ?? I couldn't find that idea. Otherwise say it to me :D
======================================

First of all, new teams will arive. But every team has a little modification around his ship.

New Upgrade Team
==============
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/4992/piranhadeathym6.jpg
TEAM Piranha Death

***** (Speed)
***** (Handling)
***** (Shield)
***** (Thrust)
***** (Weapon Strength) This is an additional attribute. The more ranking this ability has, the stronger the missiles, mines, rockets and other weapons would be.

When you attack a ship that has a shield ranking of 1 / 5 with a weapon strength of 5 / 5, this ship is faster near the death, as the pilot has thought :D

Otherwise you will not be able to destroy a ship that has a 5 / 5 shield, when yourself's weapon strength is about 1 / 5

Special Abilitys:
===========

1.) The Piranha Death Team recovers its shield-energy automatically.
The faster the ship goes on, the faster the shield will recover

2.) Ship don't get damage by hitting the boundary or an enemy. Additionally ships get more damage by hitting Piranha Death.

bakkufu
20th September 2006, 09:06 PM
Drafting and slipstreaming in WO is unrealistic. It happens in car racing, but with a thrust trail on your nose, how do you slipstream?

Jetwash on planes thins the air current across the leading edge of the trailing craft meaning not enough air enters the intakes and that the craft cant generate enough lift to stay up, hence the engines shut down.

If you are using an AG lift to negate that effect, slipstreaming on an AG racer would work because the movement of the lead ship causes pressure differences that the trailing ship wouldnt feel until it moved to overtake.

As for ideas, I fondly remember the machine guns on 2097 - it would be nice to be able to squeeze off bursts of gunfire without weapon pickups for those moments when you down someones shields but have nothing to follow up with. Would also look bloody good on the replays lol

Riccardo Raccis
20th September 2006, 11:20 PM
Weapon Strenght! Love it :rock

Dominator
21st September 2006, 12:07 AM
To much emphasis on weapons = Fusion :turd
It's about racing, not complete mayhem and destruction, although i do like hearing the odd *contender eliminated* :D

Airrider
21st September 2006, 01:45 AM
Yeah, those extra strengths for a "Piranha Death" feel too Fusiony for me too.
Although I do think a weak machine gun to file away at sheild energy would be a great tactical tool, something to make sure your opponents don't get too comfy.

Distrupto
22nd September 2006, 12:07 AM
Something small like a machine gun would be okay, but the current Pure-type AI would be toasted after the first lap. They don't respond if rockets are after them, so they probably won't respond to a machine gun. You can blast away at them until they go down or bomb you, but they won't turn and weave, so until a better AI isn't developed, machine gun is a multiplayer-only thing. You also need something like you can only fire a few bursts until the cannon has to recharge, so that people won't be going around, cannons blaring constantly.

@Bakkufu,

I mean the turbulence and thrust themselves, directly on your nose, can cause more drag, and slow you down, so slipstreaming isn't possible unless your outside the leading ships' thrust trail.

Something else that could be added to WO is ship setups, like downforce(more would make your ship fly a little lower and turn tighter, less would make it fly a little higher, with bounciness and ability to cut low-walled chicanes), some kind of top speed/acceleration tradeoff like modern cars' gearbox, an all over shield energy/strength of shields tradeoff(more shield energy means you can take more hits, stronger shields means you aren't as disrupted by hits as otherwise) and other setup finetuning. However, this tuning shouldn't be too extreme, like a Piranha with maximum shield energy should still not have as much as a Triakis, or a Harimau with top speed raised fully still shouldn't be as fast as a Piranha in straightline speed. That way all the ships maintain their basic characteristics, and a rookie in a well-tuned ship should still not be able to defeat an expert in a normal/untuned ship.

Airrider
22nd September 2006, 02:41 AM
Now THAT'S how it should go! I agree wholeheartedly!
Man! The AI in WipEout needs an overhaul. Before anything else, the AI needs a change.

rdmx
22nd September 2006, 06:36 AM
The machine gun should deplete from the shield energy though to avoid abuse of the weapon (assuming it's not a pick-up).

bakkufu
23rd September 2006, 07:14 PM
@ Disrupto

that normally only occurs when two opposing overlaps of pressure difference caused by something moving through the open air hit one another, which is why in car racing it offers less resistance than drag because the circuit on which the cars adhere to reflects the pressure difference back under the car then the trailing edge of the underside releases that pressure difference into the same wake as the pressure difference from the trailing edge of the topside.

I cant comment on something several feet off the floor as there arent two nutters crazy enough to fly jets that close to each other that close to the ground lol

In theory the slipstream effect would offer SLIGHTLY less resistance over drag so it would be semi plausable.

As for the machine guns, perhaps a good old fashioned temperature guage, so that the ships with more shield can't be overpowered in combat! I do reckon keeping it fixed would be better than a pickup, as mentioned, letting them be used tacticially rather than spray and pray, its about the racing after all!


But they would be bloody handy.... lol

Sausehuhn
23rd September 2006, 08:55 PM
Machine gun reminds my on the proton cannon which didn't do anything at all, maybe turn around a Tigron, but that's it.
I'm more for the "old" weapons. Something you press the button and it's fired. Nothing that need a lot button pressing. Maybe 3 pushes max. for a weapon (like 3 rockets in one pack) but that's it.

Airrider
23rd September 2006, 09:02 PM
I still wonder what the heck was up with the AI. Rubber-banding...not getting out of the way of rocket after rocket...I dunno.

bakkufu
24th September 2006, 08:34 PM
one thing that I do like btw is when in Ace Combat you fire off a weapon and you see the relevant weapon pods open up and fire, that would be a nice touch for future Wipeouts!

As for the guns, its more of a harassment weapon rather than a main one, I personally race harder when I'm under fire, not saying that weapons make Wipeout what it is, but it would certainly add extra elements to the race, as for holding a button, how about a tap unleashes a short burst, kinda like a short burst of gunfire.

Riccardo Raccis
24th September 2006, 09:09 PM
A recap of more ideas scattered on other topics:

- EG.R must come back - a Chinese team is currently missing
- Indian and Arab teams anyone?
- Regional leagues/tournaments
- Offworld (Moon? Mars?) teams and regional leagues

More of that anyone?

Airrider
24th September 2006, 09:11 PM
As for the guns, its more of a harassment weapon rather than a main one, I personally race harder when I'm under fire, not saying that weapons make Wipeout what it is, but it would certainly add extra elements to the race, as for holding a button, how about a tap unleashes a short burst, kinda like a short burst of gunfire.
Yeah, that's basically it, isn't it?

Shem
25th September 2006, 07:12 AM
alright, so i didn't see anyone complaining about one thing, but i bet that all of you people experianced it.

Just start the race with a boost. What do you get first? You hit all the other crafts that just don't boost up like you do. That's annoying to me, I always hit all these slow-ass crafts. The idea itself seems to weird to say the least because all the other pilots somehow cannot turbo-start (i'll call it this way from now on), but magically they catch up in no time.

What would be more realistic is if the crafts actually used turbo-start depending on difficulty levels. On Phantom - everybody would be starting the race like this. Apart from some random jackasses, who just can't figure out how to start the race this way (1 or 2 random crafts on the starting grid). On Venom or Vector there'd be much more amateurs in the league, so there would be more pilots starting off the normal way, just a few of them would turbo-start.

That would eliminate all these slaloms between other crafts, not to mention starting a race at full speed and ramming some crafts up their asses.

lunar
25th September 2006, 07:26 AM
yes I totally agree. It`s all part of producing AI that performs more like humans in terms of flying speed, instead of just being slow and relying on weapons to provide the challenge to players. I would imagine it`s got to be hard to do this though, to give the AI proper speed and then give them the right balance of weapons so that it doesn`t feel unfair when they shoot you, particularly if you are hit by them at the end to lose the race. Achievable, but I guess it`s important the AI doesn`t cheat and is seen to get truly random weapons. :)

Lion
25th September 2006, 07:49 AM
The machine gun should deplete from the shield energy though to avoid abuse of the weapon (assuming it's not a pick-up).
I like this idea.
depending on what is implimented anyway...

being able to burn shields on any of barrel rolls, hyperthrust, or some kind of weak harrassment weapon until your energy stores get down to a certain level... this could be an interesting element to consider in strategies.

and another idea that could springboard off this, while outright upgrading I can see a downside to - because it removes a big chunk of team identity - I think it could be kinda cool to purchase augmentation modules (maybe only one can be fitted per race) that have various effects like:
being able to see a shield level bar on each enemy so you can tell if "harrassing" them is worth it, or to choose your ideal target
auto healing shields (this would have to be very slow, or you'd effectively just have a really high shield value)
refire rate increase for machine gun (would chew through shields faster, but do more damage per second)

rdmx
25th September 2006, 07:55 AM
Maybe a 'pressure' system a la 'Juiced' style would be good.
If you pressure an AI opponent enough i.e. tailgate, grind them, they get edgy and start to make mistakes. The more experienced pilots will have more composure, etc.
Maybe the piloting style of the AI should change depending on their situation - I know I always fly slower once my shield is depleted.

Don't know whether this has been suggested but they should incoporate a 'Legends' mode, revisiting all the best tracks of the previous games and racing the most famous pilots.

They should also implement an 'underground' mode during the time amateurs raced after F9000 i.e. you can install dfferent parts on your homemade craft. Tune it a la Need For Speed and rise up through the 'tuner underground'! In fact, they could take that mode online!

ace-of-spades
25th September 2006, 08:29 AM
I liked the local series idea better, you start in say Japan, move up to the Pacific Rim, then all of Asia, and then the world.

andy
25th September 2006, 03:20 PM
I would make it faster (yes faster)

instead of having that cel-shaded team and track for the classics, just normal (btw, did anyone notice how much narrower they were compared to the originals?)

3...2....1....GO! and the rumbley super start

Hyper thrust again

Super weapons

Remastered ships + tracks from wip3out.

Wip3out handling

Either menu music or proper tracks playing for the menu

Repeat mode, shuffle and normal music settings

No RPG style upgrading like in Fusion.

Cat ballons!

Lance
25th September 2006, 05:44 PM
Andy, I agree with every one of those except the superweapons.

Airrider
25th September 2006, 06:43 PM
Yeah. The last time we tried superweapons, we unbalanced WipEout.

Hyperthrust as an option again would help, too. But that's just me.

Remastered WO3...you sold me.

Sausehuhn
25th September 2006, 06:56 PM
nah. A handling combining 2097 and 3 (and something from Pure or even something new maybe) would be great :)

lunar
25th September 2006, 07:06 PM
the matter of handling in Wipeout Future really should have its own thread. Handling is the one thing that matters above everything else in this one, or rather the thing upon which everything in this thread depends for success. :)

Lance
25th September 2006, 07:24 PM
Handling was certainly the reason that Fusion was deemed a failure by most fans of the earlier games in the series.

[WO3's feels real to me, even moreso than 2097/XL.]

Sausehuhn
25th September 2006, 08:31 PM
It definetely was not the environment style. Fusion had the best imo. God I love the sourroundings in this game!

Lion
25th September 2006, 09:07 PM
track edges need to be either solid (like the earlier games) or allow you to fall off (much of sol2) - electric walls like in places in fusion were too hard to spot, especially at speed.

if sections of a track are to be re-used to get more courses out of the game (fusion areas) then make the different versions have different times of day or weather conditions or something so that there's a major aesthetic difference - this helps keep them separate in our minds

Distrupto
26th September 2006, 02:34 PM
Maybe a 'pressure' system a la 'Juiced' style would be good.
If you pressure an AI opponent enough i.e. tailgate, grind them, they get edgy and start to make mistakes. The more experienced pilots will have more composure, etc.

You mean something like Burnouts "takedowns" where you slam up an opponent enough so that they crash while trying to get away? That could be possible, but either you or your target will end up firing a weapon or boosting away before you make them fall off the track or ram a wall. And why would you grind them anyway? If you get into a situation where grinding is possible, you can just sideshift into them and ram them into a wall, bomb, minefield or off the track, especially if your flying something heavy or going really fast.

rdmx
27th September 2006, 12:10 PM
No, not takedowns! 'Extreme Boost Slam!', how would that fit into WipEout?
'Contender Elimi-' "Takedown Rampage!"
What I meant was, if you pressure someone enough, they are likely to make a mistake.

Lion
28th September 2006, 01:56 PM
like burnout's psych out :)
I know it happens to humans, on classic2/vohl-square I can get round prety quick, but if I start to hear someone else's sounds (eg: arnaud closing on me) I start to make more mistakes as the pressure gets to me.
there have been several occasions where I have lead for about a lap and a half, then succumbed to the pressure, gone off the side, and finished the race dead last

andy
28th September 2006, 07:14 PM
You know the big cat baloons and the count down screen in W3O?

Countries could have their own mascots and countdowns.

For example, russia could have a big bear baloon and the countdown could be done by a guy in a fur hat, counting down in russian on a massive telly. :D

Airrider
28th September 2006, 10:11 PM
You could have the kind of AI you see in Forza Motorsport...they are realistically focused on both winning and finishing in one piece...

Wolfen
28th September 2006, 10:32 PM
Forgive me as I haven't had time to read this entire thread yet.

I'm not sure if I would even like this idea or not, but what if they gave you an option of like a "legacy" mode, where you could adopt one team, modify your ship over time (which would probably start with reduced stats), with the possibility of making up your own team, naming it, designing your own craft, that sort of thing. You'd make money by placing in races, and you could have fees for ship destruction, ship damage, etc.

So Imagine not just racing Van Uber, but racing, running the franchise as it were, modifying the ship, and creating a racing-franchise empire, basically.

It might be a little much for a WipEout game, but I would definitely endorse/support/buy such a title if it was, for example, a WipEout X.2 version kind of thing, like perhaps WipEout Pure Special Edition or something.

Zerow
29th September 2006, 12:02 AM
Countries could have their own mascots and countdowns.

For example, russia could have a big bear baloon and the countdown could be done by a guy in a fur hat, counting down in russian on a massive telly. :D

Nice one.

If there was a track in Wales, the "3, 2, 1, GO!" announcer could be the Welsh dragon or something!

Lance
29th September 2006, 03:54 AM
A red one. :)

rdmx
1st October 2006, 08:44 AM
We want speed!
The game needs perepheral (spelling?) blurring at speed. Even better, full implementation of HDR lighting - imagine the exiting a tunnel and being blinded by the outside light and heading straight for a wall at 700 kph!
That's what I'd sign up for!

Lion
1st October 2006, 01:00 PM
wipeout pure overexposes on exit from tunnels, just pay attention as you come out onto the back straight in vineta K for an example :)

the effect is noticable without destroying your ability to see what you need to be able to pilot accurately

Albino Ace
1st October 2006, 09:42 PM
one thing that I do like btw is when in Ace Combat you fire off a weapon and you see the relevant weapon pods open up and fire, that would be a nice touch for future Wipeouts!

As for the guns, its more of a harassment weapon rather than a main one, I personally race harder when I'm under fire, not saying that weapons make Wipeout what it is, but it would certainly add extra elements to the race, as for holding a button, how about a tap unleashes a short burst, kinda like a short burst of gunfire.

You play Ace Combat too? :D

Anyway, that would be an interesting feature...kinda like the special effects for that movie Stealth...

What I didn't like about Fusion was that it was harder to time the boost at the start of the race. (the countdown in 3 helped) Did that come back in Pure? That would be nice for future Wipeouts...

Zerow
1st October 2006, 11:13 PM
It didn't. It's still the "Ready . . . GO!" line.

But timing a turbo start in Pure is actually very easy. Just hold off the X button untill the very split second after the announcer says "GO!".

Dominator
2nd October 2006, 12:47 AM
It's way too easy, i don't think i've missed a turbo start yet!!:D

Lion
2nd October 2006, 01:29 AM
It didn't. It's still the "Ready . . . GO!" line.

But timing a turbo start in Pure is actually very easy. Just hold off the X button untill the very split second after the announcer says "GO!".
I hadn't really put much time into fusion, but I was playing it splitscreen a couple night ago, and it seems that fusion uses the same turbostart method.
just the pause between "ready" and "go!" is waaay longer which makes it harder to guage when to hit it

lunar
2nd October 2006, 10:42 AM
It's way too easy, i don't think i've missed a turbo start yet!!:D

Wait until you play on Xlink - you will. ;) Against the AI you just done`t see the difference between one start and another, but there is an element of risk and timing in Pure starts. If you are slow you can still get a turbo but not such a good one. If you take a risk and guess the start exactly right you can get a rare monster thrust, which would enable a Piranha, say, to beat a Goteki off the start line, if he is a bit slow on the uptake too. This is a great feature, and like a lot of things in Pure works very well because it`s not overdone. No change required here, imo. :)

Dominator
2nd October 2006, 11:01 AM
Look forward to the day i play on line with you guys!!:D

lunar
2nd October 2006, 02:31 PM
I hope you can, too. There are quite a few of us playing regularly on kai at the moment, it`s a good time for it. 8)

The starts are really very well balanced - last night on kai my opponent earned a win on Koltiwa with the start, by getting a monster thrust in Piranha while I was not so quick in G45, getting ahead of me in the supposedly slower starting ship, picking up mines and bombs, dropping them in my face and securing a well-earned win on the first lap. I can`t complain about that. In the next race, Khara Descent, he missed the start altogether and lost five seconds. I`m not complaining about that either.;)

The starts seldom win or lose the race though, just occasionally, generally they are just another small factor in the overall performance. Really Pure is very well balanced in multiplayer, with few things taking too much significance over general flying speed, and making starts harder could upset this. Which brings me to my big WipEout idea for the day, about the one thing that unbalances the game more than any other in multiplayer: Quakes. I think Quakes should be abolished for multiplayer. If you spend 4 laps carefully building a three second lead, then lose just because someone happened to pick up a quake, and with one simple button press defeats you, it`s unfair. In close races a quake is often the "auto-win" pickup. I have a personal interest here, as with my flying style I must lose at least one race in six because of quakes, and I can`t remember the last time I won because of one. Bitter, moi? Yes. ;) But overall they do unbalance the game too much. If someone hunts you down, and takes you out with rockets, plasma or a missile, you can`t complain. Even timing a missile shot takes skill against a fast opponent. But when you outfly the opposition and lose because of sheer luck that didn`t require them to use any skill, it gives a sense of unfairness. It`s about the only thing that spoils seriously the balance of the multiplayer game. So I say abolish quakes, or make them very, very rare, with a low limit on how many can be picked up in a tournament and race. They are good special fx, but gameplay is more important and let`s make them even more special, by never seeing them, or maybe only once a year.

They also just turn the game into a Twisted Metal experience at times, as someone said on kai. Re-introducing backfiring quakes, without turning round, would just make these moments of weapon madness more frequent.

Dominator
2nd October 2006, 03:02 PM
Are there many people racing Feisar on kai, if so how have they faired against the likes of Piranha, Icaras and Triakis, can Feisar hold it's own against the Heavyweights?:D

stin
2nd October 2006, 03:56 PM
I hope you can, too. There are quite a few of us playing regularly on kai at the moment, it`s a good time for it. 8)

I think Quakes should be abolished for multiplayer. If you spend 4 laps carefully building a three second lead, then lose just because someone happened to pick up a quake, and with one simple button press defeats you, it`s unfair. In close races a quake is often the "auto-win" pickup. I have a personal interest here, as with my flying style I must lose at least one race in six because of quakes, and I can`t remember the last time I won because of one. Bitter, moi? Yes. ;) But overall they do unbalance the game too much. If someone hunts you down, and takes you out with rockets, plasma or a missile, you can`t complain. Even timing a missile shot takes skill against a fast opponent. But when you outfly the opposition and lose because of sheer luck that didn`t require them to use any skill, it gives a sense of unfairness. It`s about the only thing that spoils seriously the balance of the multiplayer game. So I say abolish quakes, or make them very, very rare, with a low limit on how many can be picked up in a tournament and race. They are good special fx, but gameplay is more important and let`s make them even more special, by never seeing them, or maybe only once a year.

They also just turn the game into a Twisted Metal experience at times, as someone said on kai. Re-introducing backfiring quakes, without turning round, would just make these moments of weapon madness more frequent.

I`ll need quakes so I can keep up with you guys but asa must not use quakes ever!;)

I think it`s a good idea for quakes reasons.

stevie:)

Sausehuhn
2nd October 2006, 04:35 PM
And why we don't get back what we had in Fusion: turn off/on the weapons you dislike/like in the multiplayer mode.

lunar
2nd October 2006, 06:10 PM
Dom, Feisar isn`t a bad Kai ship at all. Good acceleration at the start and a decent shield mean it can compete with most of the heavyweights at Phantom. I think it`s a better Phantom Kai ship than all of the heavies except Triakis. It is a little, errrrr, pedestrian at lower speed classes though. ;) At Phantom, top speed isn`t such an issue and you can make up for lack of it by hitting lots of boost pads, which with a good thrust stat will give you a decent vavoom.

Max, I can see the attraction of bringing back weapons selection. I think a lot of people might support it, but I`m not really in favour. I think players could spend too long just discussing which weapons to use and this could become an issue in itself. I`d rather have a standard setup out of the box, with SL getting it just right once. Maybe as a compromise there could be two weapons settings, for "heavy" and "balanced" weapons, affecting the types of weapons that get picked up and the kind of game you want. Or perhaps as you get up to faster speed classes the weapon pickups could get lighter, with few (or no) quakes at Phantom, for example.

Zerow
2nd October 2006, 11:55 PM
Or perhaps in online play, you could be matched with players who have the same weapon activation/deactivation setup as you, in the same way that there could be a ranking system that matches you with players at the same skill level as you.

Asayyeah
3rd October 2006, 12:53 AM
last night on kai my opponent earned a win on Koltiwa with the start, by getting a monster thrust in Piranha while I was not so quick in G45, getting ahead of me in the supposedly slower starting ship
1.58.27 on Koltiwa ;) i even didn't noticed my monster thrust start i was so focused on the way to handle piranha. On other side i was totally amazed by the proportion of mega thrust from Del Stepho ( kai august session) , we were using same ship ( triakis) him 2nd on line then 2 sec after the go he was far ahead of me : he made probably more than 50% of turbo start :o he said : ' just a matter of timing mate :) ' . I like the way the start is on Pure , that really add a great dimension you can loose or win a race on a start...
( sweet transition to talk about the 'quake' factor into Pure and answer to the recriminations from Stephen ...)


I think Quakes should be abolished for multiplayer. If you spend 4 laps carefully building a three second lead, then lose just because someone happened to pick up a quake, and with one simple button press defeats you, it`s unfair.
Nah you can't say that, quakes are part of the game truly, and it's not unfair to win a race due to one quake: mainly because throwing one while you are racing at 700kph is definitely tricky , i am not saying this by joking, you need to really know how the track is cause when throwing it you can't actually see what happend in front of you while 1 or 2 sec ( depends on the speed you are ) and if you hit a wall or something which is slowing you down , the quake will not go far.
Besides if you start thinking quake is unfair how do you think about turbos or AP ? it happended to me to get more than 10 turbos into a 5 lap race and don't have any during 2 tracks. Will a win be more legitimate when having 10 turbos in a race or having a quake to get the win by or none of them ?
Or what happend when a faster start light or not ship get bombs & mines on first weapon pads and you behind you struggle to avoid them and trying to catch back the opponents with few seconds pawned ?

Honestly the game is very well balanced imo , i don't want to see more weapons on the next wipeout, maybe as it was mentionned select the weapon you want or not.
Anyway that wd be the choice of the hoster and a status on what kind of game is wd be shown for everyone, so that they can decide if they wanna join or not the arena.
I am glad if we could have only rockets and plasma on an arena : they are the 2 weapons which require a real skill to shoot your opponent.


Zerow : like the xbox live system ranking & arenas in function of your desire to play soft or hard. ( hey that's not peep show i am talking about huh!)
I really like the way it rules for xbox users ( don't have one but from comments i heard of my friends they all say it's brilliant )

Dominator
3rd October 2006, 01:12 AM
Dom, Feisar isn`t a bad Kai ship at all. Good acceleration at the start and a decent shield mean it can compete with most of the heavyweights at Phantom. I think it`s a better Phantom Kai ship than all of the heavies except Triakis. It is a little, errrrr, pedestrian at lower speed classes though. ;) At Phantom, top speed isn`t such an issue and you can make up for lack of it by hitting lots of boost pads, which with a good thrust stat will give you a decent vavoom.


Cheers lunar this is good to hear!! :D
You guys don't kai on lower speed classes do you??

Asayyeah
3rd October 2006, 01:25 AM
except yesterday with stephen (spk) in phantom class, the 5 previous sessions were done in rapier , and we have from time to time a flash elimination with zone or medievil ship. :cold

Dominator
3rd October 2006, 01:33 AM
Lower speed classes, isn't that just a waste of your talent Arnaud ;)
Zone & Medievil!! :blarg :turd

lunar
3rd October 2006, 09:13 AM
flash tours are a good way to relax at the end of the session - sort of. If you find flying round trying to blast each other as much as possible to be relaxing. We use shield 1 ships to increase the strategic use of shield.

Arnaud, I`m not saying a win after a quake isn`t legitimate. It`s there in the game, so use it. It`s perfectly fair to use one. :) It just feels unfair to the guy who keeps getting punished for being in the lead. It just happens too often. Someone is winning the race, gets quaked on lap 3 or 4, and then there`s no way of replying. It ruins the competition, like a reverse disruptor, although that is fortunately very rare. The big difference between a quake and all the other weapons is that you can`t miss. Placing a bomb or mines takes judgement and accurate flying to be where you want to be when you place them. With quakes there`s a bit of timing involved, and keeping the ship stable while you fire is definitely not easy sometimes, but it`s not all that hard to do and in the end it ruins the close racing just far too often, in my opinion. What about if I`m winning the race by 3 or 4 seconds because I had a good run, get quaked by the second ship, then quaked again by the next two immediately and blow up. This isn`t rare. Quakes punish you for being the fastest - sometimes I honestly think it would be better not to be in the lead at all, in some races. It doesn`t ruin the game, I still think it`s beautifully balanced, overall, like you do, but these things need to be calmed down somehow. Maybe if quakes just caused less harm it would be good, like a wave under the ship that could make you wobble off the track if you don`t control it, instead of being unavoidable and devastating. :) I think it`s partly the fact that you lose complete control of the ship, and get sucked backwards, or off the side of the track sometimes, that make that weapon so annoying.

Dominator
3rd October 2006, 01:27 PM
So it's just another way of letting off some steam eh lunar!!:D
ooohhh flying around in either Medievil or Zone :turd no wonder you guys like to blast the crap out of each other, sounds like fun!! :nod
As far as shield strategy goes i kinda miss the old Pitt Lanes, having to limp precariously around the track with no shield, hoping too get there in one piece, was kinda fun too and very old school wipEout, if you get my drift!! :D

Asayyeah
3rd October 2006, 05:19 PM
Dom : rapier is very relaxing for me and a tour at 5 at that speed make the difference between guys very thin which makes a good part of the fun from Kai.
i get ' your drift' and i feel the non pit strategy for Pure is a bit too easy to survive , absorbing weapons is fun but that replenish too fast your energy.

Stephen : i get your aim on that but always feel that quakes are good like they are now : nothing is written into a race and even you get a great race you can loose it by weapons that's a fact, ok loosing it on a quake may happend but that parts of the game ( even i don't like loosing due to one i deeply agree :)
And if we really make a strong & fast race , a quake can't hit us if we are more than 3 seconds leader so it's not the ultimate weapon for me. I may loose more often races due to bombs spotted everywhere rather than a quake

lunar
3rd October 2006, 06:02 PM
I second completely your thoughts about Rapier. Phantom is more fun to fly, but the racing is unpredictable on Rapier and it`s still possible to build up some good speed.

yes, bombs are too much at times, and I also feel that they should have a limit on the number that can be picked up in a race, or made less effective. Sometimes the whole track becomes a maze of bombs and it`s just impossible to race properly. :bomb Or it should be possible to hit your own bombs, as I think Martin suggested once. Other than these, quakes and reverse disruptors, I do feel Pure`s weapons are perfect and don`t need any other changes. It just needs to go a little more towards flowing racing, and have less of coming to a dead-stop because of weapons. If quakes picked you up and threw you about, but didn`t stop the engine and make the ship into a dead duck, then it would be a challenge to ride one out, and up to the chasing guy to time it well to put you in trouble.

One thing that might have to be done, if we have weapons selection, is to make sure that as you take certain weapons out you don`t increase the chance of picking up turbos and APs, otherwise it will be difficult to fairly compare race times on the leaderboards.

I`m a big fan of the absorbing system, it really makes the multiplayer game flow and I wouldn`t want to change it, except perhaps make sure that the ship with the biggest shield isn`t very fast, and you have to take more of a risk on the shield if you want real speed. :)

Zerow
3rd October 2006, 10:14 PM
Zerow : like the xbox live system ranking & arenas in function of your desire to play soft or hard. ( hey that's not peep show i am talking about huh!)
I really like the way it rules for xbox users ( don't have one but from comments i heard of my friends they all say it's brilliant )

Indeed, a ranking system is the best way to ensure you get the most enjoyment out of playing games with non-AI opponents, and I'm hoping it shall be included in the next WipEout.

Getting thrashed by a better player than you is NOT fun, in the same way that obliterating a far lower skilled player than you is far from satisfying. Moreover, it won't help you improve your skills at all.

Dominator
3rd October 2006, 11:22 PM
Stephen, Arnaud, why don't you organise some races on kai that are completely weapons free - meaning everyone in the race agreed to only absorb weapons and not fire them, this will give you a nice clean race!! :+ :D

Lion
4th October 2006, 04:07 AM
weapons on/off is a host toggle anyway
but for some reason it never gets used...
I guess weapons are just too much a part of wipeout

bakkufu
4th October 2006, 08:54 PM
just a thought but the machine guns i mentioned earlier could shrug off the odd bomb if aimed correctly, gives them a secondary use if you will...

Distrupto
5th October 2006, 01:59 AM
Yeah, but with machine gun, hyperthrust/barrel roll and weapon defence all coming from shields, everyone will run for a Triakis.

@ lunar,

Quakes aren't unavoidable, but they are devastating. You can outrun them with a turbo-autopilot combo or just a turbo if your lucky, use a shield to protect yourself, or jump if there is one. If none of those is available, well, I usually try not turning too hard or using the pitch control to avoid getting slammed into a wall or bomb. But they can still lose you a race easily, unless you have some rockets, a missile or a quake loaded to tag your opponent/s when they pass.

Here's a random idea: If rockets and missiles can destroy bombs and mines, why can't plasma bolts destroy them too, quakes displace them, and disruption bolts temporarily disarm them? That way you can plough through a bomb/mine field without slowing down and coming off your line.

rdmx
5th October 2006, 10:02 AM
How bout those hyperthrust, barrel roll, etc. used a percentage of the shield energy just like it does now? Then the triakis would have no advantage in that respect.

lunar
5th October 2006, 12:12 PM
Do you mean making it so all ships can do the same amount of Barrel Rolls? Without any pickups, as it is, a Goteki can do 14, I think, with virtually no wall contact at all. An AGS can do 9 in the same circumstances (or possibly 10 but you would need a perfect race I think). Having BR energy use so that all ships were capable of the same number of BRs might help even out the game, but could also take out some of the interest in ship choice.

Distrupto, you`re right, you can do all that. But mostly it`s not possible to outrun a quake, unless you`re right at the end of its range. Unless you know for sure you can do it, in my opinion it`s better to let the quake get you and save the turbo for your recovery. If it gets you while you use the turbo then you will have wasted it. Make quakes a bit slower - or turbos a bit faster - both might be good ideas, but would have other effects. If we stood a greater chance of dealing with them, or outrunning them generally, things would be a lot more exciting. :)

eLhabib
5th October 2006, 12:55 PM
I think it would be great if there was a way to 'surf' the quake with a turbo. think of it like real surfing - the wave comes and right before it catches you, you have to start accelerating as much as you can, in order to get just in front of the waves crest. if you manage to time it right, the wave will carry you forward until it runs out. however, if you boost too early, you will run in front of it, and once the turbo has dried out, it gets you. if you boost too late, you get thrown over the crest and land square on the floor just as it is now.
so effectively, the quake would become a weapon that can be used to the victim's advantage, but only with timing and skill.

btw, I don't think the BR system should be changed. it's only fair that heavy ships like triakis can use more BRs to compensate for poor acceleration. however, I think heavy ships, especially triakis, are too immune to weapon inertia. they can drive over a bomb or take a rocket hit and barely lose their line, while feeble ships get spun around like a chicken that got hit by a baseball. realistically, the push from weapon inertia should affect the heavier ships nearly as strong as feeble ships, a little less harsh, but taking longer to countersteer. since the ships are in no way connected to the ground, there is no way a heavy ship can have more 'grip' than a feeble one.

lunar
5th October 2006, 01:56 PM
Really like that Quake idea - quakes as a kind of mid-air almost out of control turbo experience, if you catch it right.

It could work so much better. As it is in Pure, if you get quaked on the open section of Sol2, for example, you`re probably going off the side. Some pickups can help, but often even if you do a good job of controlling the first hit then this second inertia force, or whatever it is, gets hold of your ship, the engine cuts out and you`re pulled over the side with no ship control at all. It might actually make sense to drive off the side deliberately, just before, or as the quake hits, so you don`t waste so much time. Much more fun if one of three things could happen: 1. You have a turbo, you ride the quake and actually gain time (or at least don`t lose much) through a mad moment. This should be very hard to do though. 2. You don`t have a turbo, but with a lot of sideshift and fighting the controls you can stay on the track. 3. You react too late, or not well enough, and the direct force of the quake carries you over the edge.

Agree about the BR system and the way weapon hits should work, too.

Rapier Racer
5th October 2006, 06:41 PM
What happens when the quake goes round a corner?

lunar
5th October 2006, 07:24 PM
If it`s really like surfing a wave around the track, I imagine it carries you with it as it flows around the corner, but slams you into the wall if you`re too close to the outside. I imagine braking and steering would still work to some reduced extent. It`s supposed to be difficult and dangerous...... :)

bakkufu
5th October 2006, 11:17 PM
Regarding the machine guns, again having them overheat after a few rounds, then having to cool down would even the score a bit on that front. I was never a hyperthrust fan to be honest, so I hope its not coming back!

As for Quakes, one thing I have seen before is point defence shielding in a game called StarSiege, where the player can force all of the shields power to the rear of the mech you fight in manually - perhaps some kind of system where you can manually concentrate all of your shield to the rear using the right stick would be in order?

The idea being using the right stick on a PS3 that the ship then immediately becomes a pain in the ass to fly / use weapons with whilst doing this meaning people cant abuse it and should they do, by jamming the stick in one direction with tape or something, means ANY forward hits are then straight onto the hull!

Shem
5th October 2006, 11:56 PM
I like the idea of the shield managment. But only before the race, eg. when the countdown begins. Then you'd use the right stick to shift the energy field from front to back if you wish to do so, since the shield is balanced by default. During a race - i think there'd be no time to fool around with the shield anyway. Well, maybe in lower classes it'd be ok, but imagine doing that on phantom! My brain melts out of my ears just by thinking how much info you'd have to process.



"Alright, so there's this wall, i'm flying Icaras in Phantom at full speed, there's very little energy left, and i just heard some guy launching a homing missile right up my ass. Now, should i switch the shield to front, so i don't crash, but maybe i won't get hit by the missile, or maybe..."

^
that's what's going on in your brain during 0.5 second.


and you end up crashing anyway

Zerow
6th October 2006, 12:42 AM
Indeed, that sort of feature sounds like it would be too overwhelming in the middle of a race, especially at Phantom class.

Asayyeah
6th October 2006, 03:25 PM
surfin' the quake : crazy idea but i like it much :+ that could replace the 2097's way of wall scraping

Shield managment: to be able to switch from rear to forward should be added into multiplayer : although this may leed to an heart attack if you suddenly panic between rear & forward and discard the wrong side of your shield.
When i see how we can totally loose our control when fightin at 5 like yesterday night on Kai and i can't imagine if you add the surfin'quake + the shield strategy ( don't even talk about the machine gun :cold )

lunar
6th October 2006, 04:01 PM
My brain melts out of my ears just by thinking how much info you'd have to process

happens to me all the time in Pure multiplayer. Everything is so much by instinct, and has to be so fast, just occasionally my wires get crossed, brain goes blank, I just forget what I have to do and crash into the wall.:brickwall It`s usually while trying to do several things at the same time, like a tricky BR, drop a bomb in a specific location and then at the same time get through a difficult corner. Or I just get everything in the wrong order with an AP/BR combo and my mental program crashes. To get to the point, I think we should be careful about adding new and complex (at least at high speeds) control features. I don`t think there should be any more than 1 extra, non-essential feature, such as hyperthrust in Wipeout 3, otherwise button configuration and just getting your hands around it all at high speed will become too difficult. For me anyway, getting to the second analogue stick in a Phantom race, with all the other stuff to do, would be too complicated by far. I would rather keep it simple and instinctive, overall, which is the beauty of it too.

Might be just my tired old brain cells though. :)

Asayyeah
6th October 2006, 05:30 PM
you right in a sense : the most addictive games for the masses are those who are not too tricky to understand and to use.
We could just add the shield switch : i really luv that idea and it may work like this : when shield is engaged quickly pitch nose down to have the shield forward, nose up the backward shield, easy to use.

bakkufu
8th October 2006, 07:27 PM
well for the shields I was thinking that you could push the right stick forward for shields to the front, leave it centred for default coverage ( meaning that you have to hold the stick forward for front and when you let go it centres back ) and pull back for rear shields, meaning that players could use the default shields by just not using the function, or for higher speeds. On other speeds, straights etc then players would have the choice to manage their shields!

Could be good fun, could be crap, thats why I suggested it for you guys to pick it apart :)

Sausehuhn
8th October 2006, 07:37 PM
Why not use one of the axis of the controller (named "SIXAXIS btw)?
Not the same as for nose up and down, cause pulling the nose up/down also changes your course/handling.
E.g.: drop down the nose on a jump doesn't let you float that high - now you're on a jump and don't want to float high and a weapon is coming from the back ao you want the shield in the back of your ship. If you have to pull the nose up to get the shield in the back you actually were floating high - a thing you dont want.

Lance
9th October 2006, 07:44 PM
I would think that shield switching would be better accomplished by a couple of extra buttons on the controller, one for forward, one for back, both at the same time to reset to off or center?

bakkufu
9th October 2006, 11:17 PM
I can see it being too powerful if there isnt a balancing factor to make shield switching always the best idea, hence sticking it on the right stick to purposely make it difficult to do in some situations.

Wolfen
12th October 2006, 07:16 PM
Meh, I think the shields are fine how they are. Adding another layer of complexity will just make it harder. I mean if you're lucky enough to get a shield and then use it at the right time, that's a good feeling. How much would it suck to accidentally put it on the wrong side of your ship, thus giving it no effect?

As far as the barrel rolls, I like the idea of letting them use a percentage of your shield energy rather than a flat rate, as that would be more fair to the weaker-shielded AG-craft.

bakkufu
12th October 2006, 07:51 PM
Wolfen, I was talking more about the racers standard shields, not the pickup ones :)

definately agree about percentage of energy for the barrel rolls though!

Omni Requiem
12th October 2006, 08:23 PM
I have to agree on that final point, it made things much harder. Craft like Icaras, AG and Assegai had enough trouble with incoming killer rockets and some turns already. The nature of the boosts is tactical, but there can be a very fine line between tactical and cheap.

Cannon_Fodder
13th October 2006, 10:43 AM
Personally I think it's good that ships with stronger shields can do more rolls. It's a good reason to pick those ships, otherwise you don't really need a ship with a really strong shield.

Airrider
13th October 2006, 09:31 PM
It's all about balance, isn't it? Stronger shields=more barrel rolls has to be balanced by something, presumably the usual lack of acceleration and turning the heavy ships have.

Wolfen
13th October 2006, 10:05 PM
Today while at work (on the can, to be exact) I was thinking of something I'd think was really, really cool in a WipEout game. What if there was a story mode where you could pick your team (i.e., Feisar, Auricom, etc.) and then pick a pilot, or even better, design him/her by picking hair type, uniform style/color, etc. Then, instead of those almost universally lame 3D CGI stories, make it more like a Japanese RPG with really well-drawn pictures of your character, and just printed text on the bottom.

I was thinking if you race poorly, one (of many) character could be portrayed as being a sopping drunk, whereas if you win, he/she might be a big drinking life-of-the party type. I don't know, that would only apply to one character, I have many more ideas but no time to type them! I'll be bock!:pizza

Airrider
13th October 2006, 11:18 PM
More like a Career Mode, huh?

Wolfen
13th October 2006, 11:58 PM
Well yeah, like a career mode, but I imagine it to be very unlike the typical career modes from most sports games. I'd want you to have a rival team, perhaps with a special villain character depending on which tema/character you picked, a lot like the story mode from games like Tekken 1-5. It would be kind of cheesy like that, and probably optional, for the hardcores who only care about racing. But it would add character to the WipEout universe (if done well enough), and create some drama.

There would obviously be choices you'd make along the way, too. Replay value and all that.

Airrider
14th October 2006, 04:07 AM
So, more like a Fable-style game, eh?

Asayyeah
14th October 2006, 04:19 AM
that has been discussed before ( but ermm i don't remember which pages ) , that kind of RPG wipeout with too much about story or modelling your character on the background , is definitely, imo, wasted time for the Pure essence Wipeout is : Racing . F zero got that kind of stories but that doesn't fit to the wipeout universe ( i feel sorry but i don't want to see that precious serie going on the way you describe )

But i am for a dedicated multiplayer mode in which those kind of characters you describe can be transposed to our real universe for real players we are, and following their result trough a whole league like the GTR online game Rob is playing. Those kind of stats and also news & reports from tournament win or lost by player may be included into the multiplayer ps3 mode : that could really be an immersive way of a complete season racing : and teams could be created too, sending invitations for fightin on a specific arena.
I need to insist on the multiplayer mode : this is , with the handling of the ships, the main point to next Wipeout being a Star :+

Mad-Ice
14th October 2006, 11:44 AM
Asayyeah said: I need to insist on the multiplayer mode : this is , with the handling of the ships, the main point to next Wipeout being a Star :+

I agree totally with this. A real easy way to meet friends and make arena's, customize leagues (tracks), customize number of laps and being able to have a replay mode with different camera angles.

ace-of-spades
18th October 2006, 12:55 PM
that has been discussed before ( but ermm i don't remember which pages ) , that kind of RPG wipeout with too much about story or modelling your character on the background , is definitely, imo, wasted time for the Pure essence Wipeout is : Racing . F zero got that kind of stories but that doesn't fit to the wipeout universe ( i feel sorry but i don't want to see that precious serie going on the way you describe )
I agree, i think a career mode that is exactly that, a career where you move from local league to national league to international, possibly with a ship design element is a good idea, but i dont want an RPG based on character development with an added racing game.

I was thinking maybe it would be cool if say the reflector and the shield, or maybe two shields, had some kind of reaction if they hit each other, like exploding etc... This would be cool because it would mean if you had a reflector, and you wanted to overtake someone with a shield, you would need to either wait, turn off your reflector, or try and jockey around them without touching them...

benjahman
18th October 2006, 01:35 PM
Hi all,

To me WO Pure is fantastic, nothing to change for future games on PSP or PS3 exept maybe some small details.

- Weapons display : It's awful on WO Pure, why the hell they didn't keep the translucid digital style weapons display of WO 2097 or something similar?

- The missile target lock of WO Pure is not really well done either, again, the turning square of WO 2097 was great!

- All the light and sound effects like exploding bombs, plasma, rockets are beautiful!!! Don't change anything please. Or maybe just 1 thing: when you hit another ship with plasma, the explosion should be different than if you hit a wall (other color or something else).

- Last point: the variety of design of a same racing track is very important, for exemple Chengou Project and Blue Ridge are fantastic for that reason. When you race in a "poor design" racing track, it's boring. Sinucit for exemple, even if there is great stuffs in it, the whole race is a bit monotonus. So the things outside a track is very important to add more realism in it.

Thanks to have took the time to read me.

lunar
18th October 2006, 02:09 PM
Agree almost totally with what you say - especially about Pure not needing a lot of alteration, and about Sinu:turd being a monotonous track. Pure can be improved, imo, but there`s really no need to change much.

I really do like the missile lock of Pure though. The missiles are somewhat unreliable, and can be difficult to use if the guy ahead is fast, which is how it should be. Otherwise they would be a cheap easy hit. You might have just been talking about the missile lock display though. :)

benjahman
18th October 2006, 02:23 PM
Yes lunar, but concerning the missile lock I was just talking about the target aquisition display which was better on 2097 (for me), not about the missiles themselves.

Another idea I thought about last time: I don't know if someone already suggested this option. This one would consist to watch the race we did just before. I thought about a camera placed just above the ship and we could change the angle and distance of the camera from the ship during the replay.
We could control the replay (backward, forward, pause, ...) this way, we would be able to watch every performance we made during the race.
Maybe this option would be tuff to add for a future version on PSP (if there is one) but for future WO on PS3, it would be great!

Oups, sorry, it seems that this idea has been already talked about...

Omni Requiem
24th October 2006, 07:56 PM
Personally, I'd like to see a return of pit lanes, plus I'm not too sure about story or career modes, WO Fusion had character backgrounds but that detracted from the essence of Wipeout. It all about the crafts baby.

Also, what music would some people like to see, artists and style wise?
I'm hoping for a bit of Muse's "Map of The Problematique" or at least a remix of it. It fits in well with the style from previous WO games. Anything from the Hartnolls will be fantastic too.

Lion
24th October 2006, 08:01 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing oblivion make a return, their (his?) downloadable music for pure is pretty sweet to race to...

Rapier Racer
24th October 2006, 08:02 PM
Oblivion Recordings is a label, the 3 songs were from 3 different artists

Zerow
24th October 2006, 08:34 PM
Personally, I'd like to see a return of pit lanes,

I much prefer the weapon absorbtion system of Pure, as even weapons that you never actually use (such as Autopilot) can be handy when you discard them.

Also, having to duck into the pit lane almost every lap spoils the flow of the race a bit for me.

Lance
24th October 2006, 09:15 PM
.

Also, what music would some people like to see, artists and style wise?
I'm hoping for a bit of Muse's "Map of The Problematique" or at least a remix of it. It fits in well with the style from previous WO games. Anything from the Hartnolls will be fantastic too.

We have a discussion of future music for Wipeout games here:
http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3263
.

Dominator
25th October 2006, 02:58 AM
With regards to Feisar and a base of operations(The Feisar assembly line spans 12 countries, none of whom communicate with each other on a regular basis, the end product can be well below par, and their craft have always suffered in the speed area.)
Feisar has been around since day one, and this negative **** needs to be sorted!!! I would like to see in the next incarnation of wipEout a joint base of operations for Feisar!!
I'd like to nominate France & England for this task, these two great countries created Concord together and wasn't she a gem :D I think they would do wonderful things for our beloved Feisar :)
Feisar would still represent the FEDERAL EUROPEAN INDUSTRIAL SCIENCE AND RESEARCH, that would never change!!

stin
4th November 2006, 08:12 AM
I was thinking there, everytime we are in a middle of a race, then one pilot blow up of his ship but not fully blow up, so the wreckage stays on the track and we have to dodge his ship while racing to make more interesting!.

Well what do you think?

stevie:)

Lion
4th November 2006, 09:13 AM
so leave the blackened husks (a-la wip3out) on the track as hazards? nice idea :)

andy
4th November 2006, 11:07 AM
I much prefer the weapon absorbtion system of Pure, as even weapons that you never actually use (such as Autopilot) can be handy when you discard them.

Also, having to duck into the pit lane almost every lap spoils the flow of the race a bit for me.

Ok. wot about if pitlanes returned WiTH absorbsion, which had less of an effect?
This would make them both important & without making it too easy

I prefer pit stops tho

ace-of-spades
4th November 2006, 12:41 PM
I think there should be pit lanes, pit lanes are just part of the concept of racing.

Asayyeah
4th November 2006, 05:26 PM
I was thinking there, everytime we are in a middle of a race, then one pilot blow up of his ship but not fully blow up, so the wreckage stays on the track and we have to dodge his ship while racing to make more interesting!.

Well what do you think?

stevie:)

Yeah i 'd like to see that into a new wipeout , this is a very good idea : and in some case there could be more than 1 wreckage onto the track ( think about a Manor Top mayhem at 8 :) )

stin
4th November 2006, 09:16 PM
Also other thing like, Mind 2097, known as the secret ship (Piranha), I have to complete this game to open this secret ship. Wipeout Fusion, mind the Devilla track, then imagine put together as a professional race against the professionals (like kai) but we will need to completed the game first then opens up the ultimate race to compete against AI.

Maybe too extreme but might be worth it!

(I think I`ll stay off my stella)

stevie:beer

Asayyeah
4th November 2006, 10:57 PM
in Ridge Racer when you finish the game at 100% there's a mode like that and this is great cause AI is tough as hell and it's like racing the best opponents found in kai : that's called Max Cup and you ve got 3 tracks to complete being 1st to unlock the 3 next races on other speed class ( there's 6 degrees ) No reward unlocked just the pleasure to beat real hard AI.

For wipeout that could be cool to have that like a bonus at the end of the game : for those who haven't got an internet access that wd be sweet to compare with crazy AI ( like humans are into Kai )

Lion
6th November 2006, 10:03 AM
would be kinda cool if zone was available like it is in pure - on special tracks. but a reward for getting a complete set of golds was to have zone mode opened for all the normal tracks a-la fusion

Mad-Ice
20th November 2006, 09:20 AM
No Stin just keep on drinking Stella!!!

I think it is a great idea, only maybe a slight alteration. Like being able to play infrastructure on vector, if you have finished the game in that speed class. If you haven't finished the game totally in venom class, then you are not able to play infrastructure in this speedclass, and so on. This way your progress is putting you in arena's together with people with the same skill at that time, isn't it?!!!!

And to add something different: I remember the homingmissle on Rollcage, you could fire this one to the person on the first place. It would be fun in infrastructure to be able to pick one homingmissle per race. This one will give complete chaos in the last lap and you will have to choose, to keep your homingmissle for quiet some time and not being able to get speedboost or other pick-ups.

lunar
20th November 2006, 10:11 AM
Not sure about the homing missile. If I spend 5 laps carving out a decent lead, then get hit by some cheap missile like that, I`m going be imitating those "smash your ps3" people. :blarg

But I really like the idea of having to beat a mode in single player in order to race it online. Then the offline game is like getting a real race license :)

Chill
22nd November 2006, 04:19 AM
Yes, I always thought that that was a good idea, not the homing missile, but the infrustructure rule... very appealing!!

*EDIT*
Mabye some mini games that literally does train you on certain aspects of the game, such as mini games with just the air-brakes, or just the D-pad, perhaps with just aiming with weapons... like the actual training module before the game... perhaps...

Rapier Racer
27th November 2006, 11:54 PM
Here is an obvious idea it may well have been brought up before but I am 5 years behind and it only just me on Kai the noo. Let's have all versions of the game talking to each other please instead of, oh your euro version can't talk to his US version. Are there any other games out there like that by the way?

lunar
28th November 2006, 09:54 AM
I think that`s the case with most ad-hoc multiplayer psp games. I`m not sure what happens with proper infrastructure online ones. I had Outrun but can`t remember if I succesfully connected to any non-Europeans. Succesfully connecting to Europeans was hard enough. But we really have to be able to play the whole world in the future, yes please. :)

Zerow
28th November 2006, 09:13 PM
For pretty much all PSP Infrastructure games such as SOCOM, if you only have the EU version, you can only play against fellow owners of the EU version. You'll have to import if you want to play against non-EU version owners.

This is all way too much hassle just to be able to take on the world online. If there's a second PSP WipEout and a way of allowing us to play against the world regardless of which version of the game we have is discovered, it'd be mightily appreciated.

ace-of-spades
28th November 2006, 10:10 PM
Espescially seeing as regions are usually put into media, as a price-fixing tool.

kowareta|vojeet
29th November 2006, 03:43 PM
The changing of weather conditions within a track, was that mentioned?!

ace-of-spades
29th November 2006, 04:08 PM
As a purely graphical thing or something that effects gameplay? Like it being slippery in the wet, etc.

infoxicated
29th November 2006, 04:32 PM
The changing of weather conditions within a track, was that mentioned?!
Yes - search the thread for the word "weather" and you'll see it has.

kowareta|vojeet
30th November 2006, 05:52 PM
@infoxicated
Ah, okay.

@ace
As a graphical element.

Rapier Racer
30th November 2006, 08:19 PM
As a purely graphical thing or something that effects gameplay? Like it being slippery in the wet, etc.

And what exactly is going to slip over the wet surface? My ships tyres :D

andy
30th November 2006, 08:57 PM
Well..:?...well, what if it was raining really heavily and there was like a big bridge under a lake, or something, and the lake was overflowing and then there was like waterfalls at the entrance and end of the tunnel and your ship got pushed down by the force of the waterfall......or something like that. :D

ace-of-spades
1st December 2006, 03:02 PM
And what exactly is going to slip over the wet surface? My ships tyres :D

It did occur to me that water might not effect an anti-gravity ship, but then again it would be a cool element even if it wasnt realistic.

stin
1st December 2006, 04:21 PM
Actually it did happened on Wipeout Fusion! waaay off course. I could not mind which track though!:paperbag

stevie:)

Sausehuhn
1st December 2006, 05:24 PM
Cubiss Float - it was ice and not water, tough.
And I think the handling also changed a bit on sandy ground.

JABBERJAW
2nd December 2006, 03:38 AM
leader missles are pure crap, computer assistance at it's best although now that I'm thinking about it Not as bad as one on one xl where your ship slows to a crawl if you are ahead, because that is just frustrating. Random weapons please. Not where you are located in the race. Or at least an option of random weapons for multiplayer. In single player, random weapons is a must. Xl and wo64 you cannot pick up turbos once you get into first place.

Silverstream
3rd December 2006, 10:41 PM
I have quite a few bits I'd like to see included/resurrected/improved upon:

I would like a track set in a futuristic Vienna, with all the sights in a highly modernised environment. It's my favourite city, and it definitely has a lot to offer. They've done Moscow (Vohl Square), now let's see one for Vienna!

In terms of weapons and other controls, I hope Hyperthrust makes a return; I missed it in Pure, expecting it to be included. On a similar note, I much preferred the pit lanes as opposed to absorption of pick ups - I hope pit lanes make a return. Auto-pilot was at its most drunken in Pure, so with luck it'll be tightened up for the next game. I hope they bring back team's own special weapons, too.

One of the features I liked the most in Fusion was the use first and second pilots, with the background and personalities the manual and game website provided. I'm sure a lot of you would prefer the 'personal' nature of 2097, 64, Wip3out and Pure in that you were you, but for me personally it was great to pick a racer whose personality was close to my own (or choose the hot girl pilots... ).

One last thing - let's see the number of teams upped again. I liked the packed grids with 16 racers in Fusion; just 8 seemed a little limited in Pure for me.

ace-of-spades
4th December 2006, 12:57 AM
I actually dislike the hyperthrust, i think the boost pads were a better idea, they introduce a higher element of piloting to the game.

andy
5th December 2006, 03:08 PM
I need hyperthrust back, I need pitstops back and I need it to be so much faster!

infoxicated
5th December 2006, 07:57 PM
You might get one of those things. ;)

Sausehuhn
5th December 2006, 08:00 PM
I hope it's the last of these 3 (and I know it isn't the 2nd).

You already know more, Rob?
Hey just one small thing: did they already start now? :)

infoxicated
5th December 2006, 08:13 PM
Wait and see. :)

Asayyeah
5th December 2006, 08:17 PM
:hyper :sonar :hyper

Sausehuhn
5th December 2006, 08:29 PM
How long? :D

infoxicated
5th December 2006, 09:11 PM
As long as it takes. :)

Hacker X
5th December 2006, 09:32 PM
Hey Infoxicated, has developement of PS3 Wipeout started yet? Also, what would I have to do to possibly get a song I made put into the game? I know it sounds crazy, but I was just wondering.

Here the link to the song on my Myspace page. Its the first song that plays and is a tribute to Wipeout.

"Anti Gravity"

http://www.myspace.com/dimenzionalshift

infoxicated
5th December 2006, 09:33 PM
No comment.

As for the song, post a link to it so folk can check it out and you never know.

Hacker X
5th December 2006, 09:43 PM
I posted it a while back on the Pilots Lounge section, but I'll make a new thread in this section. Thanks!

Task
5th December 2006, 10:05 PM
As long as it takes. :)


That right there would be the absolute best news I could possibly hear.

We don't want no "rush job" here, nosiree!
If it were being developed, it should be developed with care and focus.

Angryman
6th December 2006, 05:34 PM
When are we getting some Wipeout PS3 info?
Anything, even confirmation that the game is in the works.
Wipeout PS3 is basically the only game i'm looking forward to on any next gen console and no mention of it is downright frustrating.
As for Ideas, I hope the game has nice track designs, both in layout and track scenery, and i'd like to see it keep its wipeout style, not go way off centre like fusion did.
Also, one thing i found utterly annoying with wipeout pure was that i had to go into the profile and check my progress just to see which tracks/tournaments I had completed/achieved Gold in. It would be nice if we got a little gold, silver or bronze star in the event selection screen... hope that makes sense.

infoxicated
6th December 2006, 10:01 PM
The front end shorcomings in Pure have been noted, and you can expect to see a vast improvement when you're playing the next Wipeout sequel.

As to when that'll arrive I cannot say - when the time is right the information will be made public. I neither have the authority or the permission to release any details.

In other news, this thread has gone way off topic and gotten to far too many pages to be of any use. Any further Wipeout ideas should be posted in a new topic with an appropriate title. Thanks for taking part in this one, though. :+