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Roland
4th January 2005, 09:53 PM
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professional level judgement gone missing

Lance
4th January 2005, 10:07 PM
.
i'd like to reply to this right now, but i'm going to wait until i feel less sarcastic
.

yawnstretch
4th January 2005, 10:33 PM
Lol at Lance. Im a bit weary right now myself.

yawnstretch
4th January 2005, 10:38 PM
Well at least you've got spirit Roland - in some respects I agree with you, although Wipeout 3 was actually my least favourite of the original trilogy. I think they had the balance right with Wipeout 1 personally. If Pure were to be more like wipeout one's in-game and pre-rendered style I'd be happy.

Seems they've gone for a 2097 style - but Im happy to say I've seen what looks like darker, more wipeout1-esque tracks thrown in the mix.

Don't get me wrong - I do like minimalist, but sometimes you can suck the life right out of something if you're not careful.

Gonaka
4th January 2005, 10:49 PM
there were a lot of good points there, and almost everyhting you said can be justified, but i think some opinions there were a little confrontational there, especially to the hardened pilots here in the zone (as demonstated by Lance's comment above =p ). Saying that studio liverpool dont know wipeout anymore is like saying coca cola dont know how to make soft drinks. Quite insane.

I hated Fusion myself, especially the pilots and solid art style (of lack of), but I quite like how Pure is turning out, im very impressed with the art direction, especially considering that tDR arent involved, if i had to criticise, id say it looks very similar to Wip3out, but seeing as that was my favourite game, design wise i cant really complain.

Your links and contact with mr Place shows that at least u aren't some noob who is shouting overly contraversial opinions without solid backing :wink:

It'll be interesting to hear the responses of this topic!

Oh, btw, im a Graphic Designer myself :)

Lance
4th January 2005, 11:00 PM
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okay, i've calmed down a bit.

Roland, if i understand you correctly, you want to contact Sony's Liverpool studio, the designers of WipeoutPure, and tell them they're a bunch of idiots who don't know what they're doing and that they should hire this guy and that guy to design their game for them. do you expect that this will have any effect whatsoever, either positive or negative [in your opinion] on the design of WipeoutPure?
or is your motivation just to tell somebody that they're idiots?
.

Shem
4th January 2005, 11:58 PM
Well, Lance maybe you wouldn't be so angry at the guy if he didn't use '****' word that much, adding more of 'imo' here and there. Roland is right about some things becouse it's easy to point out things that are 'wrong', but it's not that easy to make them 'right'.

Lance
5th January 2005, 12:32 AM
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i agree with a couple of his opinions, but acting like an obnoxious adolescent twit is not the way to influence game design. if you're going to claim professional level judgement, you need a professional level attitude. Sony is full of professional business people who are not fools. millions of dollars or whatever other currency unit depend on decisions made about these games, and these businessmen are not going to even listen to someone with an attitude like that in the rant.

childish egocentrism is all very well when someone is by himself in his own room and interacting with no one, but as soon as social interaction with other humans happens, it doesn't go down very well. it is a separate matter from whether an opinion is correct or not.
.

Roland
5th January 2005, 12:42 AM
I am not saying that SCEE is a bad development team.I think quite the opposite to
be exact. I just have some major grips with the art direction of the newer Wipeout titles
Fusion, Pure). Who are we kidding, programming games like Wipeout isn't easy and those
guys are doing a good job at it. Still I feel that Wipeout isn't what it used to be, which is
sort of a shame since it has really always been such a modern game compared to the
ther products on the market.

Let's be honest. Designing the fonts, the graphics for the menu, the textures and the
packaging isn't the hardest thing there is to do in the development cycle, but in the case of
wipeout it makes all the difference (.. at least to me).

PS:
"Sony is full of professional business people who are not fools. millions of dollars or
whatever other currency unit depend on decisions made about these games, and these
businessmen are not going to even listen to someone with an attitude like that in the rant."

Of course, but those seem to be the same people who believe that by making Wipeout a
it more typical will sell them more units.

Roland
5th January 2005, 01:02 AM
@Lance

yes, I actually think that it would make the game better, if they would hire a outsider
from the graphic design scene to help them with the art direction. The Designer Republic
did a good job on the first three Wipeout titles. So I thought that Michael Place would be a
good choice, since he already contributated to the Wipeout titles that are "imo" well
espected. Of course there are a ton of other great designers out there that are doing
good work that's a bit off the norm.

and dude... this is a rant on an message port on the internet. It's not that I send this thing
to SCEE per mail. You seem a bit overly defensive of Fusion and SCEE Liverpool, don't you think?

I don't think that this is a typical case of "picking out everything bad". I just feel sorry that
Wipeout isn't has cool as it used to be.

Lance
5th January 2005, 03:00 AM
.
Roland said: ''and dude... this is a rant on an message port on the internet. It's not that I send this thing
to SCEE per mail.''
you asked how you could contact ''SCEE liverpool'', and your rant gave no indication that you would be any more adult in your message than you were here. as for this particular ''message port on the internet'', we are more civilised here as well. ordinarily i would have deleted such a post immediately and demanded that you rewrite it, but i wanted to respond to it in a more complete and explanatory way.

Roland said: ''You seem a bit overly defensive of Fusion and SCEE Liverpool, don't you think?''
i did not defend Fusion at all. IMO, the game has too many flaws. these flaws have been detailed again and again in the Fusion section of these forums. some of the members of the Wipeout development teams occasionally read these forums. i wouldn't be surprised if they were made uncomfortable by the criticisms, however, the criticisms were warranted, but were expressed with less fire and more reasonableness than you have done in the post which you have now blanked.

you should also be aware that the WipeoutPure development team is not the same group that did Fusion. even if they were, they should be addressed with more civility.

of the Sony execs you said: ''Of course, but those seem to be the same people who believe that by making Wipeout a it more typical will sell them more units.''
in fact, that approach often works. not this time.
Sony were trying to make enough money to more than repay development cost. they tried an experiment. it didn't turn out well. presumably it looked to them like the hardcore fans, who were apparently almost the only purchasers of WO3 despite the highly positive game review buzz, did not constitute a large enough market to pay for the game development costs.

you said: ''The Designer Republic did a good job on the first three Wipeout titles. So I thought that Michael Place would be a
good choice, since he already contributated to the Wipeout titles that are "imo" well espected.''
it is my understanding that the Designer's Republic never even made a presentation to Sony for Wipeout Fusion. Sony therefore selected from the companies that did.
i don't know who is currently doing the identity graphics for Pure. while Michael Place may indeed be a fine designer, i suspect that WipeoutPure is already too far into the development cycle to take on a new graphics consultant.

back to Fusion for a bit, the failure of Fusion to be what we wanted was almost entirely due to ''mechanical'' considerations, the physics engine, the respawning problem, the free trackless areas, the lack of proper records. possibly also track design, ship upgrades instead of pre-defined class levels, weapons choices. if the graphics style was not what everyone wanted, it was still the very least of Fusion's problems, in my opinion.
graphics designers would perhaps regard graphics design as among the most important weaknesses, perhaps even the most important, but non-graphic designers whose main concern is gameplay would not agree. gameplay is the primary consideration
.

Gonaka
5th January 2005, 03:57 AM
good points Lance,thats all very true :) those r the main things i hated about fusion too, although like i said in an above post, i wasnt too keen on the image of fusion, like most ppl probably. The way wipeout looks is an essential element to its recognition, the pleasure of playing wipeout over any other racer, well maybe not essential, but it certainly contributes a lot to the whole series. when i see fusion i am reminded of star wars pod racer :roll:

im not tryin to justify Rolands agrument, i guess the answer to this one is it all depends on how you look at it, as a designer or as the games player really. and how open ur opinions are.

the blanking of the original post was not a good move, because it makes you look like ur sulking over the fact that you cant take the various feedback of your views.

Roland
5th January 2005, 11:14 AM
@Gonaka

I blanked it because I didn't want to anger anyone or any developer who might read this.
I am well capable of defending my views or explaining why I think the series has been
missguided a bit, but if everybody goes on the fences because I was a little to harsh,
than I rather choose to take this down.


@Lance

Let me asure you that if I'd let SCEE Liverpool know the concerns I have with the recent
trend in the Wipeout series. I would of course phrase them in a reasonable manner.
Although I don't think that my original post was totally unreasonable, just a bit too harsh.

Wipeout Pure is also obviously a step in the right direction. My concerns and suggestions
weren't as much targeted on Wipeout Pure as on the next installment of the Game, which
I guess is maybe going to be a launch title for the Playstation 3.

You're also right that the gameplay mechanics is something that is integral to the Wipeout
series and I didn't know that Wipeout Fusion had such troubled gameplay mechanics.

Still... there are a lot of great/good racers on the market. I still believe that the all around
concept of Wipeout was a great mix between sophisticated gameplay and it's highly
professional and modern look. There are almost no games on the market that don't try to
appeal to the 15-18 segment on the market.

Wipeout always seemed so strict and sure about itself. It's style was well defined and
beautiful and sure of it self that it never looked like it tried to appeal to anybody.

If the next Wipeout game has the great gameplay that I think we all love, I'll be of course
partly pleased and happy. Still Wipeout has always been about aesthetics too and I
believe that this plays a big part in the sucess or a lack therefor. Wipeout 3 was great
and I can understand that it didn't sell well and didn't have the mass appeal that they
would have liked it to have, but than again most truly "cool" things don't appeal to a
majority.

I picked up the first Wipeout when getting the original Playstation on release day. I very
much love those games and it saddens me that Wipeout isn't as arty and groundbreaking
as it used to be.

You may also be right that the Designers Republic didn't give a presentation to Sony, but if
you are developing these games and it takes you from 1 to 2 years to finish them and you
pour your heart and soul in it to make this game as great as the rest have been.... isn't it a
bit egoistic to not even ask the people that could obviously help the game?


again Lance, I don't disagree with anything you said, but someone should let them know
that there are specific things they could improve apart from the gameplay concerns a few
of you seem to have.


PS: Michael C. Place designed a website for a game developer called Inferno Games
(designers turned game developers). I'd have no problems to see this style being used for the Wipeout series.

http://www.inferno-games.com/

Lance
5th January 2005, 03:28 PM
.
'' but someone should let them know
that there are specific things they could improve apart from the gameplay concerns a few of you seem to have.''
the developers do pay attention to what we say in the forums. in fact, the ''favourite track'' survey found here in the forums was put here for Studio liverpool, and used by them in choosing the character of the tracks in WipeoutPure. i imagine our comments elsewhere have also had some influence on other aspects of the game, but we'll see when it arrives.

you were probably not aware of this, but the two original creators of the Wipeout game, and some of the members of the Wipeout development teams through the years are members of these forums. they are infrequent, but highly valued contributors to the WipeoutZone.

so what happened to Wipeout Fusion you ask. :)
Sony marketing decision. they just wanted it different from before.
.

yawnstretch
5th January 2005, 06:15 PM
Can I just say that the in-game graphics of Wipeout Fusion were, in my opinion fantastic.

The gameplay was definitely off (the ships didnt feel real at all in comparison to Wo1 and Wo2097) and the pathetic pilot faces and the intro sequence took away from wipeout's style but I do believe that some of the in-game graphics of fusion brought something fresh and beautiful to the wipeout series.

But gameplay matters more than anything else. A game like wipeout 1 with ships that felt so real in their responses that your brain couldnt tell the difference is what we need. Fusion begged for over-use of the horrid air-brakes, making the ships handle like farming machinery and the bounce was all gone from the game. Anti-gravity never felt so unenjoyable in any other Wipeout game.

DuraFlex
5th January 2005, 06:29 PM
I actually liked the return of the pilots in the game like they where used in the first wipeout. It also gives a feel of immersion in a league. Yet some of them where a bit "overdone".

Fusion is still a cool game in my opinion but it feels more like riding a floating bobsled in stead of an ag-racer like in the previous parts.

Glad to see that wipeout pure is going back to the roots. Downloadable tracks ect are very cool and I think more then we expected. Still I'm a little sceptic about some craft designs, but never mind about that, didnt like the "catamaran" crafts of XL or the colorfull and weird designs of WO3 at first, now I love them ...

Mobius
5th January 2005, 07:21 PM
This is gonna sound stupid...but what the hell is going on?

i dont have time to read this but the top post seems missing...and i dont have time to read it...

Colin Berry
6th January 2005, 08:38 PM
I think some people get confused sometimes....

Designers - design the game - deal with gameplay issues and balancing, and in the case of Wipeout, design tracks, ship handling and that kind of thing, but nothing visual

Graphic Designers - they do the graphic art stuff, such as fonts, menus, etc

Artists - do the the art work in-game

(programmers do the programming)

in the case of Wipeout, Designers Republic gets an awful lot of credit for being responsible for 'designing the game' - whether its a confusion in terminology or understanding I dont know, but the thought that DR was the driving force behind the first the Wipeouts and that without them the series may fall flat, is a little naive. Sure they did at great job in the parts they did, but they didnt 'design the game' there was still a team of good coders, good artists and good designers working on it too !!
Maybe its just the terminology some people use, but the impression I get sometimes is people feel DR was responsible for everything !

As has been pointed out, most of the current team are fairly new to the series, which is to be expected afterall it would be strange to believe a development team didnt change lots over a ten year period.
Likewise some of the people at DR who were involved with the early Wipeouts arent actually there anymore.

I'd also say that designing fonts, textures, menus is in fact an important and difficult job as there are many aspects to consider and many people to please. Wipeout now is a large franchise and has expectancy from all sides, fans, none fans, the people making it, and the people marketing it. There are many peope to please, and even big fans of the game on here differ in opinion over many things, so there is virtually no chance of making everyone happy

I guess its wait and see
I know all the team are interested in the feedback from fans, we frequent these forums from time to time and there is no doubt we are all fans of the game and want it to be great every much as you guys do.

Oh well at least we are all united in hoping this will be a truly great version of Wipeout !

(wow that was a long post)

MachinaWeapon45
25th January 2005, 10:49 PM
as long as Goteki 45's ships still kick ass, and enough work is put into improving the physics a bit. it'll be great. I just hope it sells well enough in the US for me to have opponents to play against

yawnstretch
26th January 2005, 08:05 PM
Well Goteki mean nothing to me :D
But improving the physics 'a bit' may not satisfy me - I want them dead on perfect!
If I get wipeout 1 or wipeout 2097 physics Ill be a very very happy bunny.

Go Team WipEout Pure!!!! :clap

We're all rooting for ye.

Rapier Racer
27th January 2005, 10:54 AM
For some incredibly strange reason I like Goteki 45, but I havenít seen what looks like a Goteki in the vids so far

MachinaWeapon45
27th January 2005, 04:23 PM
Goteki 45 shall rule all...until I unlock all the Asegai ships, anyway.

Dimension
27th January 2005, 07:15 PM
Well I guess each to their own, nice solid ship the Goteki45, makes for a viable alternative to the FEISAR for brand spanking new, fresh off the production line wipers :P