View Full Version : SR talons reach theoretically faster than TT?

14th April 2004, 10:37 PM
I have been playing talons even more, and it is to my impression that talons reach SR can have a faster race time than in TT... why? because the first lap is faster in SR than in TT, so far i have pulled 15.5 secs on SR 1st lap, and only 16.1 secs on TT 1st lap, my fastest lap time so far is the same in both = 15.1 but my consistency still sucks so my race times havent improved much, i think i need more experience to be more consistent (practice, PRACTICE!), think with proper race lines and doing it as fast as you can you can make the same lap times in SR than in TT (so far ii have been able to)... maybe not but who knows i just want to hear some opinions about it :)

14th April 2004, 11:37 PM
Here's mine, Mano:
You are right, theoritically Sr is faster than TT for the race; the ships in sr could slow you down ( even not touch them but just avoid them when they are in your fastest trajectory, so you up your nose a little bit : result you loose a little speed ( just 0.3 or 0.5 sec but if you had this with 5 lap your time will be higher than your TT's ( even you ve done 5 PL)
On 2097 Pal in SR my best lap1 is 15.8 or 15.7 ( dont remember with precision) in TT ive done 16.3 on lap1
My best Sr race will be into the tape for Al, ive done for him a nice 1.17.1 ( 16.1/15.2/15.2/15.4/15.2)
I share the same Lap time for ST & TT : 14.7 ( ive done one for Al in TT video)
But i must say the 14.7 is really close to be broken ( but actually not :cry: & when sou say, Mano, ' i need more experience to be more consistent' : it's absolutely my case, i need to gain experience, races by races to reach my personnal goal...
Today i was annoying by many reasons ( tv crashes, unfinished videotape for Al...) but this evening i 've forgotten all those hard stuff , and have been playing Talon's reach, again... with a new race highscore : it's always in TT with pirahna but this time i used the turning back method to compare with a normal SR race with faster lap1...
Few years ago it was in French Guyana ive made with this method 1.15.1, 8) and i beat this one tonight . result 1.15.0 :o ( 15.2/14.7/14.9/15.0/15.2)
Which was funny to see , when i started a normal TT race ( without turning) i crossed my ghost turning back into the tunnel :D

14th April 2004, 11:48 PM
:o Amazing SR time! congratulations, thats even faster than my actual XL TT time!! , i have absolutely no doubts that you can get that 14.6 lap time soon; in time you might discover something that could make you get an even faster time, i have that feeling.

seeing that i can make fast 1st laps i might be doing something very wrong on the rest of the laps as i cant get under 15.1 yet, and havent done it twice in a race either; my main problem is my timing, i sometimes hit airbrakes at a good moment and angle and a get a nice boost... most of the times i get a boost but its not optimal, i really need to hit the S curve right as its very important to get a fast exit speed to improve my actual time, btw i havent been taking the first turn shortcut to the right.. maybe that could make me reach an under 15.1 time.. i will try that

15th April 2004, 12:17 AM
Just to say one word :2 years and a half ago i wasn't cut like this , i was scraping along the long right curve ( i was crossing the X2pads around 470/480 but many times with that speed i reseted ( from 492 to 392) just before the C section just above the X2 pads on the left side. nevertheless i ve done without cutting ( when i wasn't reseted speed) 14.8. I ve reached 14.7 due to obviously cutting, but i might say it's very hard not to bump just when you land after the cut ( add smthing important when i cut i land on the X2 pads so i don't cut very much ) Without bumping i land around 465 if i can maintain this speed nearly around the whole race, 14.5 could be even possible but in what year?... 2016 for the 20th birthday of 2097/XL :lol:

15th April 2004, 01:50 AM
[acts casual. turns palm up and curls fingers up, looks at fingernails. says:] oh, yah. 14.7 seconds. i could do that if i really wanted to.
uh huh. yep

15th April 2004, 03:18 AM
mano, xl is slower than 2097 for talon's reach, the games play much differently when assayeahs technique is used. I seriously doubt 14.9 can be beaten on xl. For the rest of the tracks xl is faster though.

15th April 2004, 11:45 AM
mano, xl is slower than 2097 for talon's reach [...] For the rest of the tracks xl is faster though.

To cut right to the chase: How is that?


15th April 2004, 12:23 PM
The braking technique is more prevalent in 2097, meaning you can stay at a much higher top speed if there are no turns that you need to crank on the brakes. . The top speed on talon's for xl ranges from 344 to 400(roughly. 344 top speed without turbos, and 400 with turbos + brake technique). For 2097 the speed ranges from 344 to 482. Since it is possible to keep your speed at 440 and above the entire lap, it becomes faster.
going 344 in xl is similar to going about 380-400 in 2097(as far as speed is concerned. the games time runs differently for some reason). So, averaging 450 on 2097 is faster than averaging 370 for xl by a small amount. The other tracks are faster on xl because the speed drops well below 400 on many of the tracks for 2097 when you need to make the hard turns, and it takes too long to get back up above 440 before the next turn.

15th April 2004, 08:20 PM
Well seen Al, just one word to add concerning the comparaison between XL/2097 are you totally sure that there's only Talon's reach which is faster in 2097 rather than XL;
I have a doubt on 2 more tracks: sagarmatha & Valparaiso, recently i smashed my old TTrace time on Valpa ( before 2.12.0 , actually 2.08.1) and when i see yout TT racetime on XL Valpa it was 2.11.8 , maybe you have done better but that was i saw on the leagues, so maybe Valpa could be a faster track too. Sagarmatha except for the big 90°right corner ( up) where i loose lots of speed, my racetime is quite similar as your XL.
Ive made 15.8 a lap on it ( only a 15.9 into the tape for you)
My opinion :we should practise and practise more &more ( as Mano said) and with that we can find the way for improving our times.
Last word....this game have no limit...

BTW Al i just send the tape today ( they told me you will received it in 6 or 9 days from today) 5 € not expensive.

15th April 2004, 11:39 PM
valpo and sagar are not even close. Even though our times are similar, I did not use the technique on that time. I'm sure 4 seconds faster is very possible(at least). Valpo is about 5 seconds slower using the technique based on my good lap times for both.

15th April 2004, 11:59 PM
Also there is this matter of decceleration... is decceleration is the same in both versions? ups, jumps, corners, etc.... holding up speed is very important; I try not to lose speed, cos in the end it matters a lot, even if you lose a little and manage to get the speed back airbraking on a speedpad, it sometimes makes you lose that precious 0.1 you needed (depending on how much time or how long a distance you need to build the speed back).


nevermind, Al already answered this in this same thread.... didnt noticed his post im a bit distracted and unfocused today :P

16th April 2004, 01:31 AM
News from Valparaiso : i noticed tonight with my pal Sleeh-003, strange things about my braking method. Can't really describe that in proper english words nevertheless the result is there i 've beaten my formerValpa time which was 24.6 by a new 24.3, nothing new about the race time ( done a 2.09.4 tonight but with an hell 's starting: 25.7 / 24.7/ 24.9 and 2 bad laps after that...dawn i can break the 2.05.0 barrier

Oups i will stop there with comments on Valpa :cry: , sorry Mano :wink: , it was originaly a topic about Talon's reach...i loose my mind on 2097, don't blame me :D

16th April 2004, 03:57 AM
Dont stop! :) more info on track racing is always welcome , any track, or maybe you can make a new topic if you want :), i think with all the discussions we have made we can really add them up to make a great talons guide, specially with knowledge from you and Al, from me there are only questions.

16th April 2004, 04:33 AM
i need more skill before i can ask questions. so far i've tried Piranha at Talon's Reach Phantom TT on three occasions. my best so far is 17.8 lap, 1:33.5 race. so i should practice first, question later.
[i have that same lap time in Rapier class. sheesh.]
[haven't done SR with Piranha at all]

update: 17.2

16th April 2004, 06:14 AM
hey Lance being those times arent bad at all, much less considering its the third ocassion you play with piranha phantom on talons.

Guys i just updated my TT and SR table times, getting a bit better, specially in SR; could be the fact that i am using a 19" tv now, i was using my playstation hooked to my pc tv tuner card via RF cable, and then displayed to my 17" monitor, the image was a bit degraded and everything was a bit dark with less contrast and some color bleeding (tho the darkness was easily fixed with more brightness and gamma correction).

And tomorrow the 27" tv comes back from the technician!

16th April 2004, 08:23 AM
congrats for your 1.17.3 and 15.0 !! you've done an amazing improvment 8)
Ive noticed you are better in sr than in TT ( did you practise more on sr ?)
Another quick question, with that 15.0 what 's your best speed inside that race and where did you decrease a bit your speed. Did you also use the method of braking on pads or something else?

16th April 2004, 01:57 PM
Thanks Asayyeah, yes i play more SR than TT, my fastest speed is 400 or could be a little more 401-403 but its usually right before a jump or ramp up, so it immediately goes down; the one ramp up from the first curve of the track mostly, and i get around that speed again or 390 right before the second jump after the first curve after hitting the X2 speedpad

I use your airbrake technique on speedpads also use it right on top of the first turn before going down (works a little bit but not as much as on a speed pad), my speed goes down in jumps specially; if i land correctly with a good pitch the speed down is less, also a bit on turns; but the part that gets my nerves is the S curve, its the one i have most trouble keeping up speed, i usually exit the S curve around 360-365, but the optimal i have gotten is 380+ (dont remember exactly, may be more) and i want to get that every lap on the race but i have to practice a bit more to get that, it is very important to keep up speed there as the C section after the S curve has no elements to speed up again and is long!


i almost forgot to mention, i didnt write down my lap times on the 1:17.3 race.. but i remember that 1st lap i did 15.4-15.5 i think, and my fastest lap was 15.1secs , didnt do the 15.0 on that race

16th April 2004, 03:39 PM
27 inch tv?! gasp! how can i compete with that. i only have a 13 and i race without my contact lenses in while sitting too far back from the tv to focus sharply. eek!!!!
but really, mano, i doubt that it's the tv giving you extra racing powers. :)

i was inspired by all this talk of sub-15 second laps to try piranha a fourth time last night. it's so frustrating to get one good by my standards lap, and crash badly on all the others. the hard part for me seems to be to avoid thinking about things while racing. even if what i'm thinking about is conscious thoughts about the racing itself, it seems to distract me, and bam, into a wall and bounce over to a wall on the other side of the track. and speaking of good by my standards, when i make a clean lap with no crashes on the first lap, it's still in the 18s or 19s. how in the hell are you guys getting in the 15s? uhoh, i'm asking questions before getting consistency. wrong move

16th April 2004, 04:21 PM
You know it's only 2 years after buying my first Neg, i went under 16 ( not 15, ok..), so you can't really hope in having sub 15 or even a sub 16 in just 1 month after you discovered Neg-Universe. Patience ( and practising ) could lead to perfection, Lance ( and you already know this perfectly)...
Let me give you a small tip from me : Do TT pirahna Talon's in phanthom class ( just 2 or 3 races not more) then go under in Rapier and spent at least 30 min' on it , then go back to phanthom and spent about 15 min' ...you will see if you done this training 2 or 3 days ( write on paper the time you ve done each day), that gradually you will have very soon decent time on rapier and also Phanthom won't be an unsurmountable thing... :wink:

16th April 2004, 04:30 PM
i did something like that last night. my rapier class time was 17.8 for the lap, 1:53.3 for the race. not too shabby judging by the times i see over in the 2097 tables. there is hope for my phantom, but so far no performance

keeping track, an update

Rapier class: lap,17.8; racetime 1:14.6
Phantom class: lap, 17.1; racetime 131.4

16th April 2004, 08:09 PM
with those times, youre well on your way to a a 16.x and then to a 15.x time, i think you can make it in much less than a month, because of your ability and the techniques are already there and the information is in the forums, Asayyeah it took you longer because you didnt have this information at hand when you did it, you DISCOVERED it!! specially the airbrake tapping technique, if it werent for you, the times we make on XL now would not be possible at ALL, so its obvious that it took you longer since you were the FIRST to do it.

Lance, I imagine you feel like me when i started racing high speeds on phantom its really really pure great fun, and i can tell you are enjoying every drop of it ;)

You have a natural ability for it as your lap improvement is fast, the consistency comes with practice, but what i think denotes ones abilities, is laptimes and your improvement curve is really good there.

squeezing tenths out of talons reach is a very fun, very rewarding experience, in SR when i feel i am making a new record, making that sound when i pass opponents at very fast speeds -swiiiiiiishhhhh....swiiiishhhhh...my heart pumps like crazy!, maybe thats a bad thing cos excitement tends to make you lose focus, but there is a point when that excitement can be transformed on teeth grinding focus and its great!

16th April 2004, 08:27 PM
flying Piranha at Talon's Reach in Rapier class where i can handle it better is like poetry. like dancing. a slow-motion waltz

the neGcon really helps to make it feel that way

17th April 2004, 08:49 AM
Funny you'de say that, Lance. I thought exactely the same when I was improving my times on Rapier TR only yesterday. (And I'm sure I didn't read your post before now. :) ) Alright, so I was flying Quirex, not Piranha, but apparently that doesn't make any difference. *g* It's just that Rapier is fast enough to get you intoxicated with speed, while still being much easier than Phantom. Even though the latter sometimes drives me nuts, as I often feel I should actually be able to use some more flying techniques from the lower classes when really the game becomes in parts as fast as Phantom. ;)


17th April 2004, 04:43 PM
SR talons reach theoretically faster than TT ?

That was originally the name of that thread... so at this time i must say Yes... This afternoon ( after an unbelievable past night) i ve started a little ' training ' in SR Talon's and ive beaten my ' regular ' TT racetime Result : 1.15.7 ( 16.0 15.0 15.0 15.0 14.7)
Lap 5 was :o :o :o

So now let's see the response of my TTracetime.... the never ending story :lol:

18th April 2004, 08:47 AM
1:15.7! :o you keep going and going man youre on fire, youre reaching a new level; if you keep breaking your records so often im going to have to buy more congratulations to give you!, by this time i bet your consistency is very high, you mostly must be making mistakes trying to get even better lap times, and that is a great thing (we hunger for speed!!!)


in another news i finally broke the 15.0 secs barrier on XL TT phantom talons, on 14.9 secs now and i think 14.8 is very doable, also improved my TT race time to 1:16.5, did the 14.9 on the 4th lap of that very same race time, during that lap i immediately recognized by the speeds i was getting that i was going to break the 15.0 barrier.. i was right but i stayed calm and completed the race with a race time record :D

about SR being faster than TT, i reasoned this not only because of the 1st lap being faster, also because the parts of the racing lines where opponents disturb the most are the direction changes (curves), and that can be solved presetting your mind with a couple of options that may change the race line a bit but not much (easy to say hard to execute); proof of this is that you made a 14.7 on your 5th lap.

Only time will tell if SR is definitely faster than TT, i still think it is.


i just improved my TT a bit more = 1:16.3 :) updated on the tables

18th April 2004, 02:10 PM
Congratulations , the reciprocity is true for you too : did you realise what you have done :o 14.9 :o
Sorry for this Al :wink: but i must dig a reply you did in this thread :

mano, xl is slower than 2097 for talon's reach, the games play much differently when assayeahs technique is used. I seriously doubt 14.9 can be beaten on xl. For the rest of the tracks xl is faster though.

Two heart attacks for him in those past 2 days :oops: ( no offense Al :wink: ) ( even 14.8 hasn't yet reached on XL but .....)

I wanna come back on what you have written above, Mano : for the recogninization by the speeds you were getting... i see exactly what you feel about that: after many hours spent on TT you know exactly ( even without the ghost) if you can reach or not a new highscore while you are running. The major injurie will be not to stay calm & relax and it happened to me several times :( but sometimes you are in another dimension, it's like you know nothing bad can happend: then you reach another step.
And that's you ve done !! Brilliant 8)
1.16.3 so close to Al's one...
But no doubt Al will take back one of his fastest Neg-con and go into the danse :)

Another brick for that thread : ive equalled my TT racetime on Phanthom Phenitia by SR.
result 2.08.2 ( before it was 2.16 in SR and few days ago i ve beaten my TT time ( from 2.12.0 to 2.08.2))

19th April 2004, 05:31 AM
Thanks on the compliments Asayyeah!, i made a video of a 1:16.5 TT race time and with a 14.9 lap on it, if you see that video you will notice that i could have gotten a 14.8, as my speed on that lap at the C section of the track is very slow (365), i can get a speed on that section of 383+; Im thinking even 14.7 is very possible making even less mistakes on the rest of the track.
Maybe i will start using internal view as the times i have played on it, it seems the view helps a bit to se how i am going to land, the twist of the camera helps with that a lot; also helps to look how to steer the ship better as the perspective on external view makes harder to calculate the nose or other parts of the ship in relation to the track, internal view is better to do that in my opinion, but for now i make a lot of mistakes on internal view as i am not used to it.

the only problem with the video is that it weights 8.5MB, a bit big to send by mail, but if your email account can handle it i can surely send it to you or anyone that wants it, but it would be better if someone could help me upload it to a server.

19th April 2004, 10:37 AM
i've never understood how anyone can drive/fly with external view. i think Al uses it too. Arnaud, how about you? internal or external?

19th April 2004, 03:34 PM
external i think is very good for when youre learning the track, because it gives a better perspective to see what is coming so the track doesnt surprise you; even with the pop up the perspective shows the track direction, however, when you know the track from start to finish this advantage is completely useless, internal can be a bit disorienting for some the first times as the camera moves with the craft (meaning it twists) so it adds another axis of motion (i think this would be very useful now). Problem is when you get used to one view.
You can play the other view with a little difference BUT that difference is a lot when youre trying to break records (specially when cornering).
When i have time i will get used to internal view ;) it gives more advantages regarding control and direction input.
i started using external view is because i liked to look at the ship i was driving (specially piranha, i like the ship)., which is curious because in every other racing game i choose internal/cockpit/nosecam view
From previous posts i have read that Asayyeah uses internal view

19th April 2004, 05:47 PM
14.8 wow, now one more tenth to prove me wrong. Hey, before the c section, do you scrape up high over the last turbo to get extra boost? Also, how do you take the first downhill(when do you pitch up, and which pads do you go over?

19th April 2004, 06:42 PM
before the c section, do you scrape up high over the last turbo to get extra boost?

depends on how i hit the S curve, but lately i prefer to stay as close to the ground without bottoming out as i can, scraping over the track and landing on the speed pad + airbrake tap gives you a very good boost, but the racing line gets compromised

how do you take the first downhill(when do you pitch up, and which pads do you go over?

on the first hill at the start of the track with the right turn i pitch up as soon as the hill starts going up, theres a kinda flat section on the hill i start pitching down right before getting ther, then i keep the pitch down right untill the hill starts going down because at that moment i immediately pitch up so i can land without bottoming out, regarding speed pads i take every one of them in the track.

I can send you the video, i have your hotmail email address but hotmail tops out at 2MB and the video is 8.5MB, i can send it to you by messenger, i already added you to my contacts list, you just have to accept me and we can figure out a way, send me a PM or let me know so we can get that video sent.

19th April 2004, 08:45 PM
Thanks Mano for the video, it's really cleaner than my former one, i must say.
It's really great to talk through Messenger ( even it was a bit difficult for me :oops: )
Your fourth lap is really awesome , but with that speed which decrease a little bit before the C , you loose the one-tenth more , to create a kind of revolution on XL :D
It's not Al who contradictes me :wink:
To Lance , Mano 's right , i play only in internal view which is the most immersive view to feel speed better ( my opinion)

21st April 2004, 06:35 AM
Well more times to support the theory :D :

I just made 1:15.9 on talons SR phantom (updated on the tables), just one tenth below my TT time but hey, i havent been playing SR for a while, so i can definitely lower that one.....however i can definitely lower my TT time also... :P

21st April 2004, 07:11 AM
here's another little bit of support, my best Piranha times for TR in the lowly Vector class are for TT, 1:03.2 and for SR, 1:02.4

21st April 2004, 03:50 PM
congratulations on your new times Lance!, more evidence; hey maybe you can break the 1:00.0 barrier :D, that would be great.

in my case the 1st lap helps A LOT, is there a big difference between your TT 1st lap and your SR 1st lap?

21st April 2004, 03:55 PM
um... i don't know. but i would think that there'd hAve to be, since the second lap in Vector TR SR is pretty clear. that last guy i pass is determined to get in one last shot with the electrobolt which sometimes carries over into the beginning of the second lap, but other than that it's free sailing