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Lance
19th March 2004, 03:51 AM
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strange, but true. at the time of this posting, Jay West and I are tied for top non-Piranha laptime on Talon's
Reach SR in vector, venom, aNd rapier classes. and on phantom, only one tenth of a second separates us. i don't think anything like this exists on any of the other records tables, but i'm not familiar with all of them.

bizarro, yes? possibly this lends credence to lunar's [?] theory that on 2097/XL, things will tend to equalise so that racing will be very close, much more so than on WO3. i'm not sure why this should be, but it does tend to look a bit that way
.

FoxZero
19th March 2004, 03:58 AM
the times arent as accurate as 3 though, right? arent they rounded to 10ths of a second?

Lance
19th March 2004, 05:38 AM
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true, but how often are times within .10 seconds of each other in 3?

XL does keep track internally to hundredths, it seems, because sometimes it says i have a new record even though the time still says the same thing expressed in tenths.

yuusen
19th March 2004, 05:58 PM

is it becuase there is more hang time in wipeout 3?
oh! theres another one for the wipeout dictionary!


JABBERJAW
19th March 2004, 09:21 PM
the reason there's less of a difference is because of hyperthrust in wipeout 3. Everyone uses it in different areas. The tracks are also harder in wipeout 3 because of the bad scraping and the turbo scraping. Also, none of the ships turn as well as the piranha ship(which makes it very easy at the slow speeds). That's what I think at least :D

Lance
19th March 2004, 10:14 PM
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'' tracks are also harder in wipeout 3''
that must be why i seem to do better in 2. i did improve a couple of WO3 times last night, but i had to really work at it. admittedly it was on a track that was particularly intensely contested, but even so it still seemed harder to make progress and be consistent in performance.

hyperthrust and turboscrape could certainly make things more complex and less equal. it's true that on WO2 TT you get a turbothrust that can be used anywhere, but you always get it at the same place and only one per lap. you can pick a consistent turbo strategy on both wo2 and wo3, but on 3 you can use it in several places instead of all at once, so that complicates things. in Sr mode on both 3 and 2, it's more of a scramble with less likelihood of being able to use it exactly when and where you want. at least that's true if you haven't attained a high consistency in your own performance, which is certainly true of me.

Jay and i both used Qirex in this instance. or rather these three instances. four if you count the near tie in phantom,

i'm beginning to think i should have put this topic in ''Pilot's Lounge''
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lunar
19th March 2004, 11:14 PM
I agree with Al. One reason for this is that Icaras is a beast of a ship compared to the Piranha. Piranha is much easier to fly. But that`s not the only reason as there are still people using Qirex, which isn`t exactly easy to handle.

there`s more you can do in 3 to gain seconds: hyperthrusting, pit strategy and using "hang time" for shortcutting. There aren`t any viable shortcuts for me in 2097/XL, AFAIK. I haven`t found one I like.

there`s less to go wrong in 2097/XL: less bottoming out, less wallbangs, all pilots making less mistakes.

all this evens up the times. The "Sartwell/Assayeah Factor" means certain pilots will always find the little advantages that give greater speed, but these pilots are only ahead by that factor of greater speed in 2097/XL. In 3 they`re ahead by the speed factor and also the fact that everyone behind them is hitting the wall more, or unable to execute the shortcuts consistently.

I`ve had two ties on 2097, but never on the more congested SE tables, even to within a tenth. I find 2097 more satisfying in some ways, in that its less a game of surviving the course than about maximising speed at every opportunity. I see a lot more PLs, which is always nice, but a 3SE PL is probably sweeter, even if I`m so shocked I crash straight away.

And of course a few more pilots have got negcons now, which removes another factor that makes a difference.

Lance
20th March 2004, 02:00 AM
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i tend to bottom out and top out much more on XL than on three; it seems that the anti-grav 'cushion' is firmer on 3. other than that, i agree with lunar in general.

hey now, i liKe Icaras! it's fast and difficult and fun. like a faster Qirex, but sleek.

i wish there were more people showing up in the new 2097/XL tables. there are not many on either version, except Talon's Reach on 2097 has a fair number. the more the better. right now it's hard to tell how good any of the times are because there just aren't enough of them and the races are not hotly contested
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G'Kyl
20th March 2004, 12:01 PM
Don't worry, Lance. I'm right in the middle of doing some TT lap times for the 2097 tables. Even though it's still gonna take some time. I have to do them all over over agaiin since I needed to buy a new memory card a while ago. :(
I'm not doing SRs, thought. Honestly, I just don't grasp the idea of trying to hit some best lap times by racing opponents, sorry. :)

To be a bit more on topic, I'd have to say that I agree with Lance - bottoming out seems to me more of a problem in WO2 than it is in 3. This only adds to the fact that 2097/XL has some rougher flying/hovering mechanics than 3. However, apart from that, WO3 is much more of a survival game than 2. Personally I still dislike the idea that going-fast-bonus and necessary-life-saving-feature are bound as one, inversely infuencing each other.

Asayyeah
21st March 2004, 12:51 AM
there`s more you can do in 3 to gain seconds: hyperthrusting, pit strategy and using "hang time" for shortcutting. There aren`t any viable shortcuts for me in 2097/XL, AFAIK. I haven`t found one I like.
erm...i haven't found any shorcuts.... on Gare d'europa. Otherwise the whole tracks have shorcuts with regular ships ( except pirahna). Many have been discovered by my friend Sleh , i just ameliorate them.
I will create a topic on XL/2097 to take a census of them. ( Without a Negcon i don't know if pple can suceed in?)


In 3 they`re ahead by the speed factor and also the fact that everyone behind them is hitting the wall more, or unable to execute the shortcuts consistently.
totally agree with you about the shortcuts. I know you prefer racing on the ground, but for me find & use them is not cheating it's not like putting codes to have instant high speed or smthing like that. It's not also like on fusion TT mode : less than 1 sec to do a track , when i use shortcuts the maximum gain is between 1 sec to 4 sec on a 30 sec race. Moreover i took the 2097 example: i rarely cut with pirahna ( only a little on Talon's beginning, and for the end of Valparaiso: only) Why .....because you loose time with this ship doing this. With Qirex and the others it's not the same ; the turbo item could give you the possibility to cut: why don't try ?


And of course a few more pilots have got negcons now, which removes another factor that makes a difference.
AHHH the NegFactor :o its like uppers for your health. with it i can't imagine racing. My worst nightmare will be to break my last Neg... :evil:
Btw thx to Stin&Cool they found me a perfect new Neg in Edimbourghin game's shop for only 5 . So nomore nighmares :D
fixed by Task
further fixed (or refixed) by xEik
[looked at just for the hell of it by Lance :D
while we're at it, let's get infox and wamdue in here, too, and have a party!]

lunar
4th April 2004, 03:13 PM
Assayeah: I`ve got no issue at all with shortcuts, so long as people own up to using them, which everyone does anyway :D I`m guessing that in 2097 you need turbos to do some of them, which is why they aren`t so useful for Piranha. I found a few with Piranha, but needed so much float to do them that I was quicker on the ground. Cutting the end of Valparaiso could be quicker in Piranha, but I have no hopes of beating you, so I can`t be bothered to learn to do it. :wink:

Lance: when I compared 3 to 2097, I was actually comparing 3SE to 2097. 3SE can be top and bottom out hell. I haven`t played "straight" 3 for years, and can`t recall what its antigrav cushion feels like. My mistake.

Lance
4th April 2004, 09:14 PM
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i don't do short cuts anywhere except on Manor Top on regular WO3. [not that my Manor Top times show any indication of this. sigh]

cut the end of Valparaiso? if i could do that, i probably should. my times at that course are really poor.

ah, SEeeeee. in that case i agree with you entirely. :)

in WO3, the only places i bottomed out in the past were Porto Kora jump and Mega Mall's drop-off before the rise to the spiral. if i start driving Phantom as much on WO3 as i do on XL.. that may change.
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JABBERJAW
9th April 2004, 02:42 AM
regular wipeout pal 3 tops out far less than 3se on the wo3 tracks. 3se does great however on the classic tracks

Asayyeah
9th April 2004, 03:17 AM
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[not that my Manor Top times show any indication of this. sigh]
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:lol: lol :lol:

Lunar Sorry i can have all the time my ' Stinda&Coll Lover's translator' in hand, so sometimes i commit misunderstanding :oops:

lunar
9th April 2004, 10:00 AM
Assayeah: no worries :D

Thanks for the shortcut guide too: I never dreamed there were so many on 2097. When you get to 3SE classics you will find hundreds. Terramax is not really a track but a series of insane jumps: very good fun.

I must learn to do that big Valparaiso cut, sometime.....

Asayyeah
9th April 2004, 06:12 PM
the shortcuts , ive worked on them with my friend Sleh for ages ( started in end of 1996's). When i was in Scotland Stin&Cool Lover offered me SE ( the first thing ive done was Talon's reach classic tracks on phanthom mode with Icaras :wink: ) Since a month i ve tried to find shortcuts on SE, i assure you there's not hundreds :o but
I ve found several new on the 2097 re-masterised tracks and also 3 big in Terramax. ( i agree with you about terramax : you spend more times on air rather on the ground :lol: )
I don't find many shortcuts on the regular tracks. I will just add those after i ve finished 2097 ( you know for a french guy it's a long job to describe correctly how do that and where... but ive nearly finished ( only Spylskynanke )

Valpareiso you can do it it's possible it's not the hardest one.Good luck fellow pilot

Lance
9th April 2004, 06:49 PM
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i've flown Valparaiso a bunch in the last two days, and i've started using a cut-off just before the pit. nose-up a bit before the big drop-off and fly through the wall at the top of the tunnel to land just before the corner, but i don't really gain any speed most of the time because i end up hitting the wall in the corner just before the pitlane. is it possible to come down in the straight after the pit entrance? maybe that's the shortcut you were talking about.

[edit: ah. i just looked at the shortcut post. landing in the straight that leads to the start/finish line is what you're talking about. i've not tried that.]

as to the ethics/morality/rightness of using short-cuts, i feel a little guilty if i have to go through an object that's supposed to be solid. a flaw in collision detection is all that allows this act which would be impossible in real life, so it detracts from the feel of reality, from the immersion in the world of the game. if collision detection worked properly everywhere, then only the shortcuts that would be possible in a real life anti-gravity racing game could be done
.

[further edit: we don't really need to get back on the original topic of this thread, but we should probably shift the current discussion to Asayyeah's shortcut thread or neGcon threads]

G'Kyl
10th April 2004, 07:54 AM
as to the ethics/morality/rightness of using short-cuts, i feel a little guilty if i have to go through an object that's supposed to be solid. a flaw in collision detection is all that allows this act which would be impossible in real life, so it detracts from the feel of reality, from the immersion in the world of the game. if collision detection worked properly everywhere, then only the shortcuts that would be possible in a real life anti-gravity racing game could be done

I wouldn't blame the developers, though. They had to make the game fast and good-looking, and extra collision detection for every object on the track takes away considerable processing time. I try to see it this way: I appreciate the wipeout world for what it is and take supposedly solid objects for what they should be. That's why I don't even bother flying "illegeal" shortcuts. Works for me, anyway. :)

Ben

lunar
11th April 2004, 03:42 PM
Like you Lance I`m a bit uncomfortable with going through walls, for the same reason. I think we either have to put up with it, for the 2097 shortcuts, or pretend that in our future world much of the track surroundings are infact holographic projections, and perhaps thus re-suspend our disbelief.

The SE shortcuts involve a lot less wall-penetration, AFAIK.

Assayeah: on Terramax it could be possible to stay in the air from the last jump all the way to the tunnel. I`ve come close to it, but not done it. Sometimes that last jump gives you an insane boost if you land right on the speed pads. This could be the craziest single shortcut in wipeout.

Lance
11th April 2004, 09:33 PM
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i like that idea. brilliant! holographic pseudo-scenery plus the grabberbots would be the AG racing equivalent of the Armco barriers, tire walls, and cranes of F1. i feel better about flying through ''rock'' and ''buildings'' now. :) a modern equivalent of escape roads at difficult corners
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Asayyeah
11th April 2004, 11:11 PM
I agree with you both two, except for one thing i feel always good about flying through kind of any structure :wink: :D :wink:
ironic me .....not french behaviour :roll: